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In his four game stretch he played 2 games with Leadbetter where he played well. Against Blackburn and Rotherham he did not, no matter how you dress it up he was no better than any of the others. he played with Clayton in those matches where we lost. He was no better than Leadbetter against Wolves in my opinion. The stats would therefore suggest that Forshaw is better with Leadbetter than Clayton, but seeing that clayton is the best midfielder we have Karaoke won't drop him. Leadbitter has also shown that he can play much better than Forshaw in the middle of the season during our purple patch.

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In his four game stretch he played 2 games with Leadbetter where he played well. Against Blackburn and Rotherham he did not, no matter how you dress it up he was no better than any of the others. he played with Clayton in those matches where we lost. He was no better than Leadbetter against Wolves in my opinion. The stats would therefore suggest that Forshaw is better with Leadbetter than Clayton, but seeing that clayton is the best midfielder we have Karaoke won't drop him. Leadbitter has also shown that he can play much better than Forshaw in the middle of the season during our purple patch.

 

That's not fair, Forshaw didn't really get to play. You can't claim Leadbitter played much better than him during that spell.

 

The boro ratings thread doesn't go back as far as Blackburn (although from what I remember he was one of the better players on the pitch that night too, including scoring what proved to be a consolation goal).

 

However the general consensus of this forum is Forshaw was the 3rd best player on the pitch against Wolves, behind only AA & Gaston, while he was rated the 4th best player on the pitch against Rotherham - although admittedly with a much worse score. 

 

That clearly shows that the general consensus was in the two games you mentioned he was by far one of the brighter sparks.

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My argument is not flawed as the discussion is about leadbitter and Forshaw. Demonstrate how Forshaw has been better than Leadbetter when he has taken his place. How many points have we won with Forshaw/Clayton compared to Forshaw /Leadbitter. Don't try to patronise CT. i do make sense.

 

Your argument is flawed because you're using the same logic as I just used and as you can see for yourself it's nonsense.  Nothing patronising about it at all, it just doesn't make much sense to say that because a player plays for club below us he's therefore worse than our players and that is exactly what you meant regarding Butterfield.  I didn't say you don't make sense, I said that point doesn't make sense.

 

You seem to be not grasping the point CT. I replied to a suggestion that Forshaw will flourish like Butterfield has. The suggestion there was that Butterfield has improved and produced the goods. He may be absolutely brilliant, yet have Derby improved,no. Infant he has been dropped to the bench the past few games. Its about how players compliment each other within a team, not individuals. Grant and Clayton have proved over the past 2 seasons that they are the best partnership. If people argued about dropping Clayton for Forshaw nobody would go along with that, but if people want forshaw to play then Clayton should be the one to go statistically. You like your stats CT

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Didn't Forshaw play against Burnley during our good run and wasn't he pretty much our best player? That's how I remember it anyway. So in a team playing well he came in and was our best player. I don't remember Leadbitter being our best player in any of those games although I thought he played quite well in the second half at Ipswich and also played well against Brighton.

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In his four game stretch he played 2 games with Leadbetter where he played well. Against Blackburn and Rotherham he did not, no matter how you dress it up he was no better than any of the others. he played with Clayton in those matches where we lost. He was no better than Leadbetter against Wolves in my opinion. The stats would therefore suggest that Forshaw is better with Leadbetter than Clayton, but seeing that clayton is the best midfielder we have Karaoke won't drop him. Leadbitter has also shown that he can play much better than Forshaw in the middle of the season during our purple patch.

 

That's not fair, Forshaw didn't really get to play. You can't claim Leadbitter played much better than him during that spell.

 

The boro ratings thread doesn't go back as far as Blackburn (although from what I remember he was one of the better players on the pitch that night too, including scoring what proved to be a consolation goal).

 

However the general consensus of this forum is Forshaw was the 3rd best player on the pitch against Wolves, behind only AA & Gaston, while he was rated the 4th best player on the pitch against Rotherham - although admittedly with a much worse score. 

 

That clearly shows that the general consensus was in the two games you mentioned he was by far one of the brighter sparks.

 

How can you say that Grant would not have played better?

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In his four game stretch he played 2 games with Leadbetter where he played well. Against Blackburn and Rotherham he did not, no matter how you dress it up he was no better than any of the others. he played with Clayton in those matches where we lost. He was no better than Leadbetter against Wolves in my opinion. The stats would therefore suggest that Forshaw is better with Leadbetter than Clayton, but seeing that clayton is the best midfielder we have Karaoke won't drop him. Leadbitter has also shown that he can play much better than Forshaw in the middle of the season during our purple patch.

 

That's not fair, Forshaw didn't really get to play. You can't claim Leadbitter played much better than him during that spell.

 

The boro ratings thread doesn't go back as far as Blackburn (although from what I remember he was one of the better players on the pitch that night too, including scoring what proved to be a consolation goal).

 

However the general consensus of this forum is Forshaw was the 3rd best player on the pitch against Wolves, behind only AA & Gaston, while he was rated the 4th best player on the pitch against Rotherham - although admittedly with a much worse score. 

 

That clearly shows that the general consensus was in the two games you mentioned he was by far one of the brighter sparks.

 

How can you say that Grant would not have played better?

 

What the hell that's not even the argument. You argued he was poor in those two games and I just showed you the general consensus was he was not.

 

EDIT: Sorry you said he didn't play well against BLACKBURN and Rotherham, my mistake. Adam Forshaw received the Gazette's MOM award for the Blackburn game so no, he wasn't poor there either.

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Didn't Forshaw play against Burnley during our good run and wasn't he pretty much our best player? That's how I remember it anyway. So in a team playing well he came in and was our best player. I don't remember Leadbitter being our best player in any of those games although I thought he played quite well in the second half at Ipswich and also played well against Brighton.

 

I agree, i thought he played very well against burnley. However Leadbitter was immense against brighton the following game when Forshaw was dropped. Its horses for course CT. With 9 games to go I don't think you drop your captain, especially with the few weeks we have had. Enjoyed the debate but I really must study now. Might reply later on to continue the debate. #UTB.

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You seem to be not grasping the point CT. I replied to a suggestion that Forshaw will flourish like Butterfield has. The suggestion there was that Butterfield has improved and produced the goods. He may be absolutely brilliant, yet have Derby improved,no. Infant he has been dropped to the bench the past few games. Its about how players compliment each other within a team, not individuals. Grant and Clayton have proved over the past 2 seasons that they are the best partnership. If people argued about dropping Clayton for Forshaw nobody would go along with that, but if people want forshaw to play then Clayton should be the one to go statistically. You like your stats CT

 

You aren't grasping the point that playing in an inferior team doesn't define an individual player's ability and that is the point you were making.  You never said a word about players complimenting each other, you simply said look where we are in the league and look where they are in the league.  

 

The problem with what you're saying is that they haven't proved it!  They've simply been the regular choices.  I'm pretty sure that Forshaw in the limited number of games he's played has been MoM a few times, that's not bad at all.  I'm trying to remember if he's actually had a bad game for us but none are coming to mind.  That doesn't mean he's been brilliant in all of them either of course but it's a good starting point.  More than anything else he's playing better than Leadbitter right now and right now is what matters to us.

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In his four game stretch he played 2 games with Leadbetter where he played well. Against Blackburn and Rotherham he did not, no matter how you dress it up he was no better than any of the others. he played with Clayton in those matches where we lost. He was no better than Leadbetter against Wolves in my opinion. The stats would therefore suggest that Forshaw is better with Leadbetter than Clayton, but seeing that clayton is the best midfielder we have Karaoke won't drop him. Leadbitter has also shown that he can play much better than Forshaw in the middle of the season during our purple patch.

 

That's not fair, Forshaw didn't really get to play. You can't claim Leadbitter played much better than him during that spell.

 

The boro ratings thread doesn't go back as far as Blackburn (although from what I remember he was one of the better players on the pitch that night too, including scoring what proved to be a consolation goal).

 

However the general consensus of this forum is Forshaw was the 3rd best player on the pitch against Wolves, behind only AA & Gaston, while he was rated the 4th best player on the pitch against Rotherham - although admittedly with a much worse score. 

 

That clearly shows that the general consensus was in the two games you mentioned he was by far one of the brighter sparks.

 

How can you say that Grant would not have played better?

 

What the hell that's not even the argument. You argued he was poor in those two games and I just showed you the general consensus was he was not.

 

EDIT: Sorry you said he didn't play well against BLACKBURN and Rotherham, my mistake. Adam Forshaw received the Gazette's MOM award for the Blackburn game so no, he wasn't poor there either.

 

Brunners, don't twist my words to try to demean my point. Where did I say he was poor? I said he was no better than the others!

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In his four game stretch he played 2 games with Leadbetter where he played well. Against Blackburn and Rotherham he did not, no matter how you dress it up he was no better than any of the others. he played with Clayton in those matches where we lost. He was no better than Leadbetter against Wolves in my opinion. The stats would therefore suggest that Forshaw is better with Leadbetter than Clayton, but seeing that clayton is the best midfielder we have Karaoke won't drop him. Leadbitter has also shown that he can play much better than Forshaw in the middle of the season during our purple patch.

 

That's not fair, Forshaw didn't really get to play. You can't claim Leadbitter played much better than him during that spell.

 

The boro ratings thread doesn't go back as far as Blackburn (although from what I remember he was one of the better players on the pitch that night too, including scoring what proved to be a consolation goal).

 

However the general consensus of this forum is Forshaw was the 3rd best player on the pitch against Wolves, behind only AA & Gaston, while he was rated the 4th best player on the pitch against Rotherham - although admittedly with a much worse score. 

 

That clearly shows that the general consensus was in the two games you mentioned he was by far one of the brighter sparks.

 

How can you say that Grant would not have played better?

 

What the hell that's not even the argument. You argued he was poor in those two games and I just showed you the general consensus was he was not.

 

EDIT: Sorry you said he didn't play well against BLACKBURN and Rotherham, my mistake. Adam Forshaw received the Gazette's MOM award for the Blackburn game so no, he wasn't poor there either.

 

Brunners, don't twist my words to try to demean my point. Where did I say he was poor? I said he was no better than the others!

 

Except he clearly was better than the others. He was MOM at Blackburn & the forum thought he was better than 7 other players on the pitch at Rotherham. 

 

We also have eye witnesses like RR confirming that Forshaw was one of the brighter sparks against Rotherham.

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I agree, i thought he played very well against burnley. However Leadbitter was immense against brighton the following game when Forshaw was dropped. Its horses for course CT. With 9 games to go I don't think you drop your captain, especially with the few weeks we have had. Enjoyed the debate but I really must study now. Might reply later on to continue the debate. #UTB.

 

 

If Leadbitter was already in the team and playing well I couldn't fault that logic at all.  But he wasn't in the team and I don't think he's playing well so to me that changes things.  I suspect that he'll be in regardless and we really need him to step up.  

 

The same things we're saying here can probably be applied to Friend as well.

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You seem to be not grasping the point CT. I replied to a suggestion that Forshaw will flourish like Butterfield has. The suggestion there was that Butterfield has improved and produced the goods. He may be absolutely brilliant, yet have Derby improved,no. Infant he has been dropped to the bench the past few games. Its about how players compliment each other within a team, not individuals. Grant and Clayton have proved over the past 2 seasons that they are the best partnership. If people argued about dropping Clayton for Forshaw nobody would go along with that, but if people want forshaw to play then Clayton should be the one to go statistically. You like your stats CT

 

You aren't grasping the point that playing in an inferior team doesn't define an individual player's ability and that is the point you were making.  You never said a word about players complimenting each other, you simply said look where we are in the league and look where they are in the league.  

 

The problem with what you're saying is that they haven't proved it!  They've simply been the regular choices.  I'm pretty sure that Forshaw in the limited number of games he's played has been MoM a few times, that's not bad at all.  I'm trying to remember if he's actually had a bad game for us but none are coming to mind.  That doesn't mean he's been brilliant in all of them either of course but it's a good starting point.  More than anything else he's playing better than Leadbitter right now and right now is what matters to us.

 

The argument posed to me was that because foresaw wasn't playing he would suddenly flourish elsewhere, as if he would be a loss to us. Has Butterfield been a loss, no. Therefore if we had kept him he would have made the same difference as Forshaw. I am really struggling to understand what you don't get?

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I agree, i thought he played very well against burnley. However Leadbitter was immense against brighton the following game when Forshaw was dropped. Its horses for course CT. With 9 games to go I don't think you drop your captain, especially with the few weeks we have had. Enjoyed the debate but I really must study now. Might reply later on to continue the debate. #UTB.

 

 

If Leadbitter was already in the team and playing well I couldn't fault that logic at all.  But he wasn't in the team and I don't think he's playing well so to me that changes things.  I suspect that he'll be in regardless and we really need him to step up.  

 

The same things we're saying here can probably be applied to Friend as well.

 

Yeh, same goes for Friend (although I think an "average" Friend is still more useful than an "average" Leadbitter personally), but I'd drop Friend too. If I was De Laet I'd be sick as hell that Friend waltzed back into the team ahead of me as soon as he was back.

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I agree, i thought he played very well against burnley. However Leadbitter was immense against brighton the following game when Forshaw was dropped. Its horses for course CT. With 9 games to go I don't think you drop your captain, especially with the few weeks we have had. Enjoyed the debate but I really must study now. Might reply later on to continue the debate. #UTB.

If Leadbitter was already in the team and playing well I couldn't fault that logic at all.  But he wasn't in the team and I don't think he's playing well so to me that changes things.  I suspect that he'll be in regardless and we really need him to step up.  

 

The same things we're saying here can probably be applied to Friend as well.

 

Yeh, same goes for Friend (although I think an "average" Friend is still more useful than an "average" Leadbitter personally), but I'd drop Friend too. If I was De Laet I'd be sick as hell that Friend waltzed back into the team ahead of me as soon as he was back.

 

How else is someone meant to get better in the team though without getting a consistent run in the side? How else do they get their match sharpness back?

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