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I wonder if we could actually do an A to Z of Boro flops who we signed in the last 10 years due to poor recruitment...

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The problem is Steve Gibson continues to seek advice from guys that have lead him to poor decisions but he now views them like family or part of the clubs furniture. As why does he continue to employ Neil Bauser CEO, Gary Gill head of recuritment it's created a culture of crusing through it as their jobs are not on the line if it goes wrong. It seems the manager gets the blame but when Woodgate was appointed he was made Head Coach not manager therefore means Woodgate has little say in transfers.  So I believe a director of football needs to be employed who will be allowed control to bring reform as at the moment everyone is just continuing with the status quo and it's not a business relationship staff have now it's an emotional one. This is never successful in business so why will it be successful in running a football club!

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1 hour ago, DurhamRed said:

The problem is Steve Gibson continues to seek advice from guys that have lead him to poor decisions but he now views them like family or part of the clubs furniture. As why does he continue to employ Neil Bauser CEO, Gary Gill head of recuritment it's created a culture of crusing through it as their jobs are not on the line if it goes wrong. It seems the manager gets the blame but when Woodgate was appointed he was made Head Coach not manager therefore means Woodgate has little say in transfers.  So I believe a director of football needs to be employed who will be allowed control to bring reform as at the moment everyone is just continuing with the status quo and it's not a business relationship staff have now it's an emotional one. This is never successful in business so why will it be successful in running a football club!

It's Gibson's toy and he's just about broke it. He won't stop interfering, it's a disease, as owner he can and does as he wishes, which is his right. However,  he's just about destroyed the club and what his true motives are are anyone's guess?

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7 hours ago, Erimus 63 said:

He's just about destroyed the club and what his true motives are are anyone's guess?

Sorry, but I can't agree with this. The vast majority of Boro fans recognise Gibson is a fan first and foremost. He loves the club so much he - with help from others - saved it in 1986, and he's earned a reputation as a good chairman through decades of financial support and (until relatively recently) remarkable loyalty to his managers. His motives are to see MFC succeed, but not at any cost.

Gibson hasn't destroyed the club, because MFC would still be in rude health if we were competing at the top end of the Championship playing good football, or even scrapping in the PL. But for too much of the last decade, we've either floundered at the wrong end of the table, or played very negative, defensive football. That's created a disconnect between some of the fans who - rightly - expect entertainment on a Saturday afternoon after a week working hard to pay for their STs and matchday tickets. Pulis represented a nadir for people who love football as a spectacle, and Woodgate's attempts to improve things aren't working.

At a push, you could say Gibson's bad decision-making has destroyed the passion some fans feel for the club, for now at least. But to say Gibson has even come close to destroying the club is nonsense when you consider we have a quality stadium, a great training facility adjoining one of England's finest hotels, a squad many Championship managers would swap their wives (or mistresses (or both)) for, and a reputation as a big club. Admittedly that's based on Noughties events rather than current ones, but only our flat-headed chums up the A19 would refer to us as a small club, and one of them is currently in an even s**tter situation than we are.

 

TL:DR: Steve Dale just about destroyed a club. Steve Gibson has just mismanaged one.

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There is definitely a difference between destroying a club and what we're seeing. Right now, there's little chance of us doing a Bury. Things could be much worse. But they could be a great deal better too and we need Gibson to start earning some trust back.

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16 hours ago, p_mards said:

I like what the club attempted to do this Summer with the signings of young players like Dijksteel, Bola and Browne who, on paper anyway, seemed good value for money, with potential and on an upward career trajectory. It is the sort of transfer strategy that I have wanted to us pursue for a very long time. However, there's no denying that they have struggled a lot so far. It's unclear how much of that is their fault and how much is our fault as a club for not providing a very good environment for young players to come into. There's no denying that the reckless tactics at the start of the season which led to us consistently being caught out of position and the lack of organised team shape out of possession will have had a damaging effect on them all. Now we have moved away from them stupid tactics we've reverted back to the dinosaur formation of Pulis and stopped giving them game time as Woodgate realised that he is fighting to save his job. If we genuinely have a philosophy that Bevington is trying to oversee then surely it is abundantly clear that Woodgate's ineptitude as a manager and coach is crippling the strategy of buying young players with the aim of improving them. If we had appointed a head coach who knew what he was doing then Dijksteel, Bola and Browne will have had far better chance to prosper here. If Woodgate is sacked I hope we keep to the strategy but appoint a head coach who can actually improve young raw players through good quality coaching and tactics.

This is my line of thinking aswell, how can we judge those 3 new players when our usually reliable players aren’t really pulling up trees either?

Its great that we’ve shared up the defence but imo that’s the easiest and most basic job for a manager, it’s to easy to put the blame for the lack of goals totally on the players. We looked totally lacking in ideas how to break West Bromwich down on Saturday and that comes from the training pitch. Even pulis was getting goals out of Britt and fletcher.

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15 hours ago, ManBearPig said:

I wonder if we could actually do an A to Z of Boro flops who we signed in the last 10 years due to poor recruitment...

Think the mods would have to create a whole new sub-forum for that! 😮

For every Ravanelli, Juninho, Mendieta, Festa, Schwarzer, Southgate & Boateng (that's ageing me, right?) we signed...just think of all the complete donkeys, or mercenaries who were only here for the pay cheque.

Before everyone jumps on me saying they were WAY more than 10 years ago, I have to go back that far, as I honestly can't think of any standout players (at least of that calibre) who've pulled on a Boro shirt since we got relegated.

Think Randolph is about the only consistently good performer we've had in recent times. Maybe Ayala too...think he's been good more often than not. After that I'm really struggling.

 

We've had plenty of players that showed potential, or arrived with a good reputation. They showed glimpses of what they could do, but mostly put in sub par performances.

That said, I think a lot of blame has to be laid at the club, managers' & coaches' feet, as quite often they've moved elsewhere and ended up doing well. Jutkiewicz is scoring for fun at Birmingham and Traore has become an integral part of Wolves' first team, to name just two.

 

 

Edited by AnglianRed
added caveat

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1 hour ago, LinoJo3 said:

This is my line of thinking aswell, how can we judge those 3 new players when our usually reliable players aren’t really pulling up trees either?

Its great that we’ve shared up the defence but imo that’s the easiest and most basic job for a manager, it’s to easy to put the blame for the lack of goals totally on the players. We looked totally lacking in ideas how to break West Bromwich down on Saturday and that comes from the training pitch. Even pulis was getting goals out of Britt and fletcher.

We look a very unattractive club for young players to come to right now. Them three (Dijksteel, Bola and Browne) aren't getting game time, and probably more indicting upon Woodgate is the fact that Wing and Fry have also really struggled under him after previously excelling under Pulis. Even Fletcher, who had significantly improved his confidence under Pulis, seems to be really struggling again.

We're in the relegation zone and it will be clear from the outside looking in that we're playing Pulis tactics again so I think we're going to really struggle to recruit any promising youngsters, especially within the January transfer window. If I was Steve Gibson I'd be very concerned about the results and performances on the pitch, but also the fact that Woodgate's ineptitude is hindering all of the apparent strategy behind the scenes of us moving towards becoming a far more sustainable business model by buying young players for low fees and improving them.

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Afonso Alves

Antonio Barragan

Caleb Folen

Dave Kitson

Emanuel Ledesma

Aiden Flint

Brad Guzan

Andy Halliday

Izaiah Osbourne

Juke

Kei Kamara

Leroy Lita

Marvin Johnson

Nicky Bailey

Bart Ogbeche

Carlos De Pena

Q

Rudy Gestede

Kike Sola

Dwight Tiendali

U

Viktor Fischer 

W

X

Yanick Wildshutt

Zemmama

Surprising how easy that is to rattle off some names of the people we've signed who have been not as good as expected.. 

Is the problem the recruitment rather than actually investing? Maybe the players we identify just arent good enough?

Edited by ManBearPig
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18 hours ago, RiseAgainst said:

Sorry, but I can't agree with this. The vast majority of Boro fans recognise Gibson is a fan first and foremost. He loves the club so much he - with help from others - saved it in 1986, and he's earned a reputation as a good chairman through decades of financial support and (until relatively recently) remarkable loyalty to his managers. His motives are to see MFC succeed, but not at any cost.

Gibson hasn't destroyed the club, because MFC would still be in rude health if we were competing at the top end of the Championship playing good football, or even scrapping in the PL. But for too much of the last decade, we've either floundered at the wrong end of the table, or played very negative, defensive football. That's created a disconnect between some of the fans who - rightly - expect entertainment on a Saturday afternoon after a week working hard to pay for their STs and matchday tickets. Pulis represented a nadir for people who love football as a spectacle, and Woodgate's attempts to improve things aren't working.

At a push, you could say Gibson's bad decision-making has destroyed the passion some fans feel for the club, for now at least. But to say Gibson has even come close to destroying the club is nonsense when you consider we have a quality stadium, a great training facility adjoining one of England's finest hotels, a squad many Championship managers would swap their wives (or mistresses (or both)) for, and a reputation as a big club. Admittedly that's based on Noughties events rather than current ones, but only our flat-headed chums up the A19 would refer to us as a small club, and one of them is currently in an even s**tter situation than we are.

 

TL:DR: Steve Dale just about destroyed a club. Steve Gibson has just mismanaged one.

You're just splitting hairs now. Destroying the passion of the fans and destroying the club are not that different, the fans are the club. And one that has and continues being very badly owned/managed. Unless this slide is halted in January with an injection from Gbson's pension fund, I fear for the future. 

All this feet kissing has got to stop. It's a disgraceful state of affairs.

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Gibson has paid £64m to own the club.

He bought the original £1m of shares from 86 at cost from ICI, S&N and Moskowitz.

He injected £50m in 2012, £5m in 2014 and £8m in 2016 which allowed £63m of debt to be converted into this new equity. 
without that the Club would have folded.

So Gibson has effectively bought the Club for £64m. This is what he has “put in”.

Everything else is loans from his Group, which he owns 75% of, with Mike owning the rest.

Some of that debt that Gibson had allowed to build to 2012 was external, some was internal to Gibson ONeill Group. The equity injection allowed the external debt to be internalised as the Banks withdrew support.

He then covered the losses made through 2012 to 2016 through increasing Internal debt to Group. This provided the springboard to promotion under Karanka.

His get out of jail was that promotion and the unlocking of revenue big enough to turn losses into PL profits. 
He has spectacularly wasted his opportunity and the Parachute Payments through horrendous appointments and decisions.

He has put zero money in since 2016 and actually reduced the internal debt to Group.

The parachute has now failed and the club will start to make losses again, having few assets to sell and poor players on big wages nobody will buy.

Gibson will now have to pay for his incompetence either covering loss with increased Group loan ( not actually putting money IN) or by injecting equity again. Either of those, or alternatively the Club will fold.

The Club has negative shareholder value of -£58m and counting. Nobody in their right mind would pay Gibson to own it and incur the debt. If the club does fold, Gibson will get little of his debt paid out and get very little for his sole shareholding.

i don’t want that to happen to a man who’s vision passion and ambition gave us such wonderful times and memories.

But if he doesn’t start making much better decisions or pay someone else to do so, then frankly it is inevitable.

He has completely lost the plot since 2016.

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2 minutes ago, boro_fan_in_brum said:

Just seen that woodgate has been tasked to reduce the wage bill.  Worst case I'm gonna have to support villa.  Please sort it out SG

Won't be that difficult. Shotton and Gestede are out of contract in the summer so thats about 60k off the wage bill. Howson too and we already have plenty of midfielders and it wouldn't surprise me if he is on 25k. Friend too and we have coulson and Bola there. Maybe on 20k. So those four players could be close to 100k a week.

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