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1 minute ago, Changing Times said:

I am.  I was *** sick of it under Pulis, I'm sick of it under Woodgate and I'll be just as sick of it if we hire Warnock.  Boro season cards should have ' A glutton for punishment' on them.

So we appoint Warnock and he keeps us up this season, then what?  You are one of the people who have complained about Boro not having some kind of long term plan, well how more short term could you get than giving Warnock the job until the end of the season and before parting ways?  Then we go back to Woodgate presumably and end up in the same position 6 months later and people talking about us getting someone else in?  It's bloody stupid.  If Woodgate isn't the man for it now then sack him and hire someone who is going to take the club forwards over the next few years.  That's not Warnock.  Let's just play crap football for ever and ever and achieve nothing in the process - the perfect win double.

Credit where its due, CT, at least you stick to your principles.

A lot of other people complain about jumping from one platform to another whilst actively encouraging it. It feels even worse this time as for 1, we're not desperately in need of points, there's 5 months to go, more than half the season left and if the season ended today, we'd stay up, so not exactly the best time to resort to someone who'll just 'keep us in the division'. It also sets us up for nothing the season after, we'd come into next season the same way we did this season with less of our better players taking up the wage bill.

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5 minutes ago, Changing Times said:

I am.  I was *** sick of it under Pulis, I'm sick of it under Woodgate and I'll be just as sick of it if we hire Warnock.  Boro season cards should have ' A glutton for punishment' on them.

So we appoint Warnock and he keeps us up this season, then what?  You are one of the people who have complained about Boro not having some kind of long term plan, well how more short term could you get than giving Warnock the job until the end of the season and before parting ways?  Then we go back to Woodgate presumably and end up in the same position 6 months later and people talking about us getting someone else in?  It's bloody stupid.  If Woodgate isn't the man for it now then sack him and hire someone who is going to take the club forwards over the next few years.  That's not Warnock.  Let's just play crap football for ever and ever and achieve nothing in the process - the perfect win double.

I would agree Warnock is a short term solution at best (he's 71 for pete's sake, so I doubt he would want more than 2-3 years max).

But given the position the club are in right now, I seriously doubt we could attract the kind of manager who could take us forward.

Right now we're in damage limitation mode. We need to plug the leaks, before we start worrying about fixing the rudder and getting the engines running (going back to my nautical theme).

 

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7 minutes ago, AnglianRed said:

Lol! Right now I'd take Sam Allardyce if it meant us staying up.

We're in freefall...a rudderless ship, with the captain drinking himself into stupor in his cabin. We're Rome on fire and Woodgate is Emperor Nero.

Warnock is about the only "old face" who hasn't had a stint at the Riverside and I'd be quite happy to see him take over. Lets face it, he couldn't do any worse.

And for all the stick a lot of fans gave Pulis, he did a half decent job. Maybe not the one he was appointed to do (get us promoted) but at least we weren't staring at the abyss.

 

He didn't do a half-decent job, he did a dreadful job. He didn't just fail to get us promoted, he failed to even take us to the play-offs in his one full season. Just because Woody has us near the bottom does not mean Pulis gets a free ride.

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17 minutes ago, AnglianRed said:

Lol! Right now I'd take Sam Allardyce if it meant us staying up.

We're in freefall...a rudderless ship, with the captain drinking himself into stupor in his cabin. We're Rome on fire and Woodgate is Emperor Nero.

Warnock is about the only "old face" who hasn't had a stint at the Riverside and I'd be quite happy to see him take over. Lets face it, he couldn't do any worse.

And for all the stick a lot of fans gave Pulis, he did a half decent job. Maybe not the one he was appointed to do (get us promoted) but at least we weren't staring at the abyss.

 

He did a *** poor job and is one of the main culprits of why we're in this situation with no money, a woefully assembled squad and no belief. I rue the day he was extended in the summer of 2018. It was just as bad a decision as handing Agnew the reigns in the Premier League. 

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14 minutes ago, wilsoncgp said:

He didn't do a half-decent job, he did a dreadful job. He didn't just fail to get us promoted, he failed to even take us to the play-offs in his one full season. Just because Woody has us near the bottom does not mean Pulis gets a free ride.

The main reason we didn't make the play-offs was those 6 defeats in a row in March-April. Barring that run we had a pretty good season. The players have to take some of the blame for that.

You can't say Pulis did a crap job when we actually did pretty well for most of the season. I'm thinking some players stopping putting the effort in for whatever reason.

Edited by AnglianRed

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20 minutes ago, AnglianRed said:

And for all the stick a lot of fans gave Pulis, he did a half decent job. Maybe not the one he was appointed to do (get us promoted) but at least we weren't staring at the abyss.

 

I respectfully disagree. Pulis took a squad which was arguably the most expensively assembled in the Championship and led us to 5th place and a pitiful, supine defeat against Villa in his first half-season, then took us to 7th in his one full season and claimed that was better than finishing 5th. He imbued the squad with such a phobia of attacking football that Woodgate hasn't been able to coach it out of the players, he filled the squad with unnecessary CDMs while totally ignoring the desperate need for wide players, treated van la Parra like s**t, took more wages than any manager in our history, and swanned off leaving us in dire financial trouble despite claiming repeatedly he was working to balance the books.

Many fans gave Pulis the benefit of the doubt for a while, on the basis he was supposedly working some fiscal miracles behind the scenes. In reality, he was stealing the lead off the roof and leaving us utterly skint, with a squad of wantaway Championship players and League One never-will-bes.

Woodgate isn't the answer to Pulis any more than Agnew was the answer to Karanka. But I refuse to believe Pulis did a good job with the players at his disposal. He had Traore and Bamford, for God's sake. Woodgate's got Johnson (when he's not suspended) and Fletcher.

And FWIW, I wouldn't welcome Warnock here. He's a more charismatic version of Pulis, with similar methods, and as others have stated above, he's hardly a long-term plan. He might stop us sinking into League One and he'd certainly get more out of our established players, but his football could bore the tits off a concrete donkey, and we'd probably end up signing two more CMs in January.

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33 minutes ago, Changing Times said:

I am.  I was *** sick of it under Pulis, I'm sick of it under Woodgate and I'll be just as sick of it if we hire Warnock.  Boro season cards should have ' A glutton for punishment' on them.

So we appoint Warnock and he keeps us up this season, then what?  You are one of the people who have complained about Boro not having some kind of long term plan, well how more short term could you get than giving Warnock the job until the end of the season and before parting ways?  Then we go back to Woodgate presumably and end up in the same position 6 months later and people talking about us getting someone else in?  It's bloody stupid.  If Woodgate isn't the man for it now then sack him and hire someone who is going to take the club forwards over the next few years.  That's not Warnock.  Let's just play crap football for ever and ever and achieve nothing in the process - the perfect win double.

Because there’s a time where these kind of appointments are necessary and imo this is one of those times. 

This isn’t a premiership relegation fight where we drop down with a ton of money and rebuild, were closer to league 1 than ever and going absolutely no where. 

If woodgate isn’t the man then what do we do, who do we go for? I’d have stendel, I’d have a foreign league manager, Pearson and shakespear? they would all be huge gambles and we’d be stuck with them.

We are just not in a situation where we can turn our nose up at warnock, that’s all I’m saying. He would all but guarantee safety and that is an improvement on what we have now.

Yes I am in favour of long term plans, but hiring another local who said he wants to play attacking football at best is a poor, poor way of doing it and I don’t trust that the club has identified targets to come in and pick up where woodgate has left off. Warnock would be a safe choice and that’s what we need right now.

The time for gambling was when monk left, Dean smith should have been brought in, the cowleys should have been brought in last summer. We have missed out on good candidates and the pool of options is now tiny. I’d love us to do what Huddersfield did when they went out and got Wagner, but can you honestly see that happening?

Edited by LinoJo3

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5 minutes ago, AnglianRed said:

The main reason we didn't make the play-offs was those 6 defeats in a row in March-April. Barring that run we had a pretty good season. The players have to take some of the blame for that.

You can't say Pulis did a crap job when we actually did pretty well for most of the season. I'm thinking some players stopping putting the effort in for whatever reason.

We scored 49 goals in 46 games.  Where we finished last season was a fluke and wouldn't have been repeated this season and that's without taking into account the squad as it currently is.  I think we'd be higher in the league than we are now but not as high as people might think.

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It wasn’t just those 6 games, we had a period of a few months after the first international break where we were awful. That was when he changed formation to 433 to accommodate Saville and hugill and persevered with it for ages. It wasn’t until Blackburn when fletcher came in and we went to 352 that we started getting results again. 

Pulis was awful, stop being blinded by league position and look at the team he had, specially in that first season. He blew the play offs, he blew £20m and went on to have one of the dullest seasons I can remember. Are we seriously supposed to celebrate finishing 7th in the championship ffs?

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24 minutes ago, LinoJo3 said:

Because there’s a time where these kind of appointments are necessary and imo this is one of those times. 

This isn’t a premiership relegation fight where we drop down with a ton of money and rebuild, were closer to league 1 than ever and going absolutely no where. 

If woodgate isn’t the man then what do we do, who do we go for? I’d have stendel, I’d have a foreign league manager, Pearson and shakespear? they would all be huge gambles and we’d be stuck with them.

We are just not in a situation where we can turn our nose up at warnock, that’s all I’m saying. He would all but guarantee safety and that is an improvement on what we have now.

Yes I am in favour of long term plans, but hiring another local who said he wants to play attacking football at best is a poor, poor way of doing it and I don’t trust that the club has identified targets to come in and pick up where woodgate has left off. Warnock would be a safe choice and that’s what we need right now.

The time for gambling was when monk left, Dean smith should have been brought in, the cowleys should have been brought in last summer. We have missed out on good candidates and the pool of options is now tiny. I’d love ya to do what Huddersfield did when they went out and got Wagner, but can you honestly see that happening?

Did we drop out of the Premier League with a ton of money and rebuild last time?  What I remember is:

We dropped out of the Premier League, spent some money on players, sacked a manager after 6 months, hired a completely different manager who didn't want half the players, sold some of them, signed even worse players, played some of the worst football I've ever seen, tried and failed to get that manager to stay, hired one of the coaches and put together a coaching staff based on people somebody at the club knew and a game of musical chairs, tried to sell the players we'd only just signed the previous summer under the manager we tried to keep on, spent bugger all on some cheap players who the current manager apparently wanted but doesn't seem to want to play all that much.  Now we're gonna replace him with a kinda clone of the previous manager but only for 6 months before we do what exactly?

Now is never the time to implement a long term plan.  We've either been challenging for promotion or fighting against relegation for a decent chunk of the last 10 years so people fear that doing something like that will lead to failure.  Our problems this season have bugger all to do with that though because we haven't implemented anything.  We've just changed the manager, weakened the squad a bit and then basically carried on as we were.  Some of what you say above is just about short term thinking and it will never end unless we actually stop doing it over and over again.  I don't fear relegation as much as I fear season after season of crap football and going absolutely nowhere especially when there is no good reason that we can't be a better football club than we are.

I do understand the thinking behind appointing a manager like that and trying to stay up. I just see that as more of what we've already had the last couple of years.

 

Edited by Changing Times

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But to really change anything Steve Gibson needs to step away and allow someone with a footballing mindset to take control of the club.

Otherwise no matter how the club dress up a "change in philosophy" it will still be the same old rubbish. 

While not being the biggest Warnock fan I'd back him to steady the ship for at least this season. His experience will be a big boost.

But I'd hope Gibson uses this time till the summer and thanks hard about what he can really bring to the table these days. For us to truly move on the change needs to come from the top and it needs to be backed financially. 

Never a dull moment following the boro is there?

 

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Your totally misunderstanding what I’m saying, I’m not supporting short term thinking but we just have to admit that now is the time for exactly that.

And where did I say we dropped out and rebuilt? We’ve got every decision badly wrong since sacking karanka, I’m not supporting any of them.

What I meant was dropping out of the championship in to league 1 is a totally different proposition and we have to avoid it at all costs. Warnock would achieve that and that’s what would make appointing him viable.

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2 minutes ago, LinoJo3 said:

Your totally misunderstanding what I’m saying, I’m not supporting short term thinking but we just have to admit that now is the time for exactly that.

And where did I say we dropped out and rebuilt? We’ve got every decision badly wrong since sacking karanka, I’m not supporting any of them.

What I meant was dropping out of the championship in to league 1 is a totally different proposition and we have to avoid it at all costs. Warnock would achieve that and that’s what would make appointing him viable.

So you are supporting short term thinking then 🙂 

There will always be points in time where short term thinking looks like the best option - whether you're trying to get promoted or avoid relegation the immediate goal will always appear to be of overriding importance.  Problem is that it's very difficult to get away from that.

I know you aren't supporting what happened during and post Premier League.  I was pointing out that we'd been in the position of being in the Premier League and we hadn't dropped down with loads of money and rebuilt.  We made a complete mess of things as you say and we're still paying for that now.  What I'm saying is that another short term appointment is just repeating what we've been doing already, it's another bad decision is my opinion.

Financially, the difference between dropping out of the Premier League to The Championship will be far greater than dropping out of the Championship to League One.  That's not me saying it's fine because I'm not fine with it obviously.  But no, we don't need to avoid it at all costs.  Doing almost anything at all costs is often a bad idea, it's how you end up making mistakes that come back to bite you in a big way a little later on.

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1 hour ago, LinoJo3 said:

It wasn’t just those 6 games, we had a period of a few months after the first international break where we were awful. That was when he changed formation to 433 to accommodate Saville and hugill and persevered with it for ages. It wasn’t until Blackburn when fletcher came in and we went to 352 that we started getting results again. 

Pulis was awful, stop being blinded by league position and look at the team he had, specially in that first season. He blew the play offs, he blew £20m and went on to have one of the dullest seasons I can remember. Are we seriously supposed to celebrate finishing 7th in the championship ffs?

I don't think anyone here is "celebrating" Pulis' achievement.

All I was saying is that had we continued picking up points, instead of going on that run of 6 defeats, we'd have been in the play-offs...and therefore his reign might have been remembered a little more kindly.

During that run we lost 4 home games against Brentford, Preston, Norwich & Bristol. Now I reckon we ought to have won at least 3 of those, which would have seen us finish with at least 82 points (and in the top 6).

I'm also saying that throughout that season, we may have played terrible football, but we picked up points more often than not, up to that point. So why the run of 6 defeats? Can't be entirely down to Pulis. I'm saying the players have to take some of the blame.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, AnglianRed said:

I don't think anyone here is "celebrating" Pulis' achievement.

All I was saying is that had we continued picking up points, instead of going on that run of 6 defeats, we'd have been in the play-offs...and therefore his reign might have been remembered a little more kindly.

During that run we lost 4 home games against Brentford, Preston, Norwich & Bristol. Now I reckon we ought to have won at least 3 of those, which would have seen us finish with at least 82 points (and in the top 6).

I'm also saying that throughout that season, we may have played terrible football, but we picked up points more often than not, up to that point. So why the run of 6 defeats? Can't be entirely down to Pulis. I'm saying the players have to take some of the blame.

 

 

For the life of me I simply can not figure how we only got 1 point out of 21 in that debacle, especially when we were winning some games at home and expected and will say that again expected to win them. The Deja vu with the home games in that spell was baffling to say the least, and we have not got over that even now as clearly seen by the points we have "cough" ammased

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