How confident are you in Woodgate after our start to the season?

[Borodane 6,300]

5 hours ago, wilsoncgp said:

They attack him for his public principles of wanting to play a different way but ignore the one thing he will ultimately need

It was a good post Wilson and I agree with a lot of it, but I just had to pick out that quote. The problem is that he isn't really doing that. We're not really playing a particular way. There were signs of that early in the season but those changes are gone and we've reverted to a crap championship side that can't do anything well. Christ, Woodgate spent all summer harping on about pressing but even that we can't do. He looks like a manager that hasn't got a clue about how to change it, and if the players havn't already started to lose faith in his abilities then they will soon. Do the players even know what to do out on the pitch? Everything looks half hearted and usually that stems from bad management.

[LinoJo3 3,191]

22 minutes ago, wilsoncgp said:

Well you do want a certain level of success already, you've said that literally at the bottom of your comment, and you absolutely do want to sack the lot because of that. I'm putting forward logical reasons for why it's daft to do that right now. You keep coming back to the football not improving and are now incredibly saying that my opinions are based on 'imaginary improvements', even though they're based on what I see. How do you come to your conclusions, like? ?

My opinions are also based on the fact we simply can't keep doing this every time something goes wrong, which is something you can't ever seem to challenge. Not only because other clubs have shown you can't just sack until you get it right when it comes to trying to fundamentally change your way of operating but financially too. I asked the same questions last year and got the same 'but the football is ***' response from you and others. People wanted to sack Pulis long before he was gone without considering the fact we'd be paying the rest of his contract off regardless (plus possibly even more if some rumours were to be believed, re the whole 'still in the hunt for play-offs when sacked will mean a bigger pay-off'). It was an afterthought for some, which brings us onto the next point.

You've made the point in the thread about Steve Gibson that we are operated inefficiently but also want us to make a further inefficient move to sack and try again and wanted us to do the same before. And what if Hughton, your man to solve the problems, comes in and is crap too? Do we sack again in another 11 games if we're still hovering down the bottom? When is enough enough and when do you decide to stop both complaining about inefficiently being operated (which I absolutely agree with you on) whilst also encouraging it? I genuinely think some think it's free to just get rid of coaches at this club.

I've also said time and again already in this debate that people can and should challenge the football on display, I've never remotely tried to stifle that debate, I bloody contribute to it every game! You make it out like I'm saying we should sit back and accept bad displays and be quiet which is never what I have said. In fact, there exists a meaningful line of thinking where you can both actively criticise and support a man in charge who ultimately is not at fault for where we are. This is on Gibson and any attempt to scapegoat Woodgate is ultimately failing to paint the picture so many want to actually do.

I say ‘imaginary improvements’ because I just can’t see the stuff you get excited about, it’s all confirmation bias rather than real world.

I think everyone needs to go back to baseline when it comes to opinions on the club now, forget pulis, forget styles of play etc.

If you concentrate on the here and now and look at our performances I can’t see any other conclusion than down right awful. 

Our midfield looks terrible, it neither creates or destroys, full backs are even worse, we have no functioning wide players and wether he’s a good player or lazy lump, Britt doesn’t stand much chance of doing anything in this team.

The energy levels are none existent, we have debates on what shape we’re trying to play, we are incredibly weak stopping or defending anything put into the box wether a cross or set piece. And most worryingly of all we’ve gone down the worst path in football of bad defending and a low goal return.

What exactly am I supposed to be looking at in these games to see this magical ray of hope telling me in time everything will be golden? 

Yes I was one of them who wanted to see better football, but why did we fall into a trap of thinking that would come simply by employing a guy who says he will play good football? To give someone time and not talking about sackings you have to employ someone who gives you some kind of confidence, a platform you know you can build off, you seem to be willing to give woodgate time just for the sake of not sacking him, it just doesn’t make sense to me.

Heres my opinion, we have failed yet again to appoint the right manager to over see these ‘changes’ and failed yet again to address problem areas of the squad.

None of my recent posts have been aimed at woodgate they are aimed at the top, either Gibson changes how he runs the club, gets someone in who knows how to run a club, or just sell up.

We are going nowhere but down as it stands.

[wilsoncgp 9,283]

2 hours ago, Borodane said:

It was a good post Wilson and I agree with a lot of it, but I just had to pick out that quote. The problem is that he isn't really doing that. We're not really playing a particular way. There were signs of that early in the season but those changes are gone and we've reverted to a crap championship side that can't do anything well. Christ, Woodgate spent all summer harping on about pressing but even that we can't do. He looks like a manager that hasn't got a clue about how to change it, and if the players havn't already started to lose faith in his abilities then they will soon. Do the players even know what to do out on the pitch? Everything looks half hearted and usually that stems from bad management.

I've said a few times now mate that I see it, I don't see it in spades but I see what we are trying to do. I see how we work pre-match and then I see it implemented in games. It's not coming off all the time, I've said that too but I do see it. I often mention individual instances post-game and apparently that's just 'confirmation bias', that things are changing based on small things apparently isn't enough to justify anything, it's just me for some reason wanting to tell myself that we're alright.

Unless it's full scale, fully productive and providing points within a few months, I must be barking up the wrong tree to suggest that we are doing anything. Unless it gets added to a highlights reel, God knows how you're going to convince anyone otherwise. I don't think many people here are going to convince me that they support slow progress because as soon as the bottom of the table looms from the first hurdle, it's panic stations, let's get rid of them and try again. We're 2 points off the bottom with 105 points left to play for and people have got itchy trigger fingers already. How is any manager supposed to succeed in that environment?

I think back to the Crewe game, a poor game of football and there was that one lad who spent the whole game shouting at Woodgate, telling him he's out of his depth and he should just walk away. A game which everyone had to pay for, ST holder or not, and someone wants to turn up just to hurl abuse at the manager. I don't have any difficulty believing what's happening now isn't just a similar thing, nor do I have any problem believing it's just as bad to do now than it was then. I'm just glad that when I do turn up to the Riverside, whilst there might not be many there, those that are there have clapped the team off most games and only really booed against Crewe and Wednesday.

[LinoJo3 3,191]

Yes because I’m so stupid I’m basing my whole Opinion of woodgate and Gibson on our league position, I’m so stupid I base my opinion of the long term on a game by game basis....

There is no slow progress, there is no actual progress, I don’t see us playing any kind of football in any kind of pattern in any kind of shape with any kind of plan. 

As I said if there was a platform you could see or something to get hold of where you could see us building off it I’d have a totally different opinion. The bare truth is we are shocking, backed up by our performances on the pitch and any stat you want to look at.

[ManBearPig 1,853]

The way I see it is that Woodgate has said all the buzzwords that he thinks Boro fans will want to hear. 

Press, high tempo, battling, never giving up etc etc etc. 

However, from the 11 games which I'm basing it on we are no where near a team which does this. Against Luton I think was the clearest example of that. However, as many have said, he bottled it. We now dont do that, or if we do, its rarely. 

The whole philosophy of his team is gone after 11 games. We arent a pressing team, we try and play out from the back, realise we cant and then boot it long. Occasionally we will play in the midfield, but even then its laboured and dogged. 

Midfield is where we are currently weakest. We dont control games and as a result we never mount attacks or protect the defence for long. Karanka had two players who sat and patrolled in the cdm roles. Whilst this wasnt eye catching, it did the job. And Leadbitter and Clayton complimented each other well. 

In his 4 3 3 I wouldnt be able to tell you what role anyone has apart from Clayton. Clayton sits but after that we dont do anything positive. Our wingbacks go forward but cant cross a ball (Dijksteele and then Shotton, Friend and Bola). Why have we adopted to play this way if we cant? 

I really want him to turn it around, but I just lose the faith each week. Change my mind anyone and tell me why it's worth giving Woodgate more time? 

That's not sarcastic or baiting people at all, I genuinely want to know what people think hes done well and why he deserves to keep going. 

[smogsterking the Inspirati 2,489]

To be fair to Woodgate he wasnt supported in the transfer window. Our attacking play and service to the forwards has been criticised in the past few seasons yet we only brought Browne in to strengthen that area. It doesn't excuse how we have become so poor defensively and it has surprised me how given what a great defender Woodgate was that we have such a lightweight back 4. Is that all down to Woodgate or the lack of backing. He wanted 4 players in the last week or so of the window and got nobody in.

I'm very much on the fence with Woodgate I would love him to succeed here but we are in a difficult position where he is learning on the job and the errors are costing us massively. Bar Randolph our big players havent stepped up either.

Overall the past couple of seasons it's probably the most distant I have felt as a Boro fan. I still follow and support them but I just dont feel the bitterness or annoyance after a defeat or the jubilation of a good win. There was a time if Boro were on the telly I would watch it no matter what last week I watched Spurs Bayern instead ?.

[Jamie-H 1,322]

A major thing that goes against him is the 3 players he signed are 3 very specific targets he himself scouted and convinced the board to buy if you take him at his word.

Dijksteel looks gangly, switches off in the middle 3rd all the time looks like a makeshift RB which he essentially was at Charlton long term he'll end up at DM again is my hunch for the rumoured close to 2 mill we paid for what he is with 10 months left on his contract is eye gauging in my opinion.

Bola going forward at times looks good but defensively he's getting caught all over especially aerially paying 1 million for a Blackpool LB with 10 months left is hardly bargain shopping and 2 months in Shottons took his spot in Woodgate's eyes which isn't great.

Browne excited me in pre season with his both footedness and technique in the season he's looked raw, good touches no finish and has a reckless streak in him.

Kind of bursts the give him more transfer windows argument for me, his tactical setup is amateur to non existant there's a reason teams put so many crosses in against us they know how poorly setup our block around our box is at crosses Woodgate's got nothing going for him on the pitch or off it I'd rather give Pearson the rest of the season at least he might get Britt firing so we can cash in a decent amount for him next summer.

[AnglianRed 6,320]

On 10/7/2019 at 6:44 PM, smogsterking the Inspirati said:

To be fair to Woodgate he wasnt supported in the transfer window. Our attacking play and service to the forwards has been criticised in the past few seasons yet we only brought Browne in to strengthen that area. It doesn't excuse how we have become so poor defensively and it has surprised me how given what a great defender Woodgate was that we have such a lightweight back 4. Is that all down to Woodgate or the lack of backing. He wanted 4 players in the last week or so of the window and got nobody in.

I'm very much on the fence with Woodgate I would love him to succeed here but we are in a difficult position where he is learning on the job and the errors are costing us massively. Bar Randolph our big players havent stepped up either.

Overall the past couple of seasons it's probably the most distant I have felt as a Boro fan. I still follow and support them but I just dont feel the bitterness or annoyance after a defeat or the jubilation of a good win. There was a time if Boro were on the telly I would watch it no matter what last week I watched Spurs Bayern instead ?.

Thing is, even if Gibson had money to spend, how much would he back a novice like Woodgate, who hasn't shown much sign of knowing what to do with the players he's got?

Its like giving a trainee stockbroker one of the company's biggest / most valuable portfolios to manage.

Some people are naturally cut out for management - others need time to grow into it, while others never get the hang of it.

At the moment, Gibson must be wondering whether Woody fits the 2nd or 3rd category. Personally, I think he's one of those guys that needed to cut his teeth in non-league football first.

My immediate reaction when I heard he'd been appointed was that he would be too much of a "dressing room" guy and try to be too matey with the players. Which on top of his novice status means he just doesn't command the respect of the players IMO (just speculation on my part I know - but the evidence so far is fairly compelling).

Our squad isn't massively different from the one Pulis took to 7th place last season. Unpalatable as his style may have been, I believe we'd at least be lower mid-table if he were still in charge.

I genuinely believe our squad isn't as bad as results so far would suggest...they're just not being used effectively and are suffering low morale / confidence because they don't believe in the manager.

Of course new signings are rarely a bad thing, but when thats not an option, you have to figure out a way to make the best of what you've got.

 

Attempting to end on a positive note, I really would love to see Woody succeed and become a successful manager with Boro. Its just at the moment its looking like we'll have to do a Sunderland first. Hmm not that positive after all...

[SmogDane 4,055]

This early in the season, you have to look at performances and not at league position.. I read that somewhere today .. But cannot remember who said it.

[SouthernSmoggie 4,242]

7 minutes ago, SmogDane said:

This early in the season, you have to look at performances and not at league position.. I read that somewhere today .. But cannot remember who said it.

But most of our performances have been wretched. 

Played okay against Brentford, Bristol C, and WBA for a grand total of one point. Has there really been one performance where we've looked good all game? 

[RiseAgainst 3,793]

19 hours ago, SouthernSmoggie said:

But most of our performances have been wretched. 

Played okay against Brentford, Bristol C, and WBA for a grand total of one point. Has there really been one performance where we've looked good all game? 

We looked good all game against Luton - going forwards, anyway. We terrorised them up front and Wing scored a goal that made my Celtic-supporting neighbour gasp. We were a shambles at the back, but after the dry-cracker diet of Pulis, that felt like a banquet. Since then, we've played okay against a couple of teams, and been absolutely s***e for most of the season.

 

I don't think WBA was a turning point - I think it was just the players dragging themselves out of their torpor to avoid a hammering. Bar Randolph, the players are so far within themselves it's like watching shadow puppets. But they must have gone into the WBA game thinking it could be a cricket score if they didn't try harder. And I don't think Woodgate can take the credit for them upping their game on that occasion, since in other matches they either don't understand what he's asking or aren't willing to attempt it.

[Prowler 197]

I had confidence in a mid table finish at the start of the season. I'm now barely confident we'll be in this league next season. 

I'm also quite close to losing all interest, this entire scenario is practically making me lose any passion I have left. 

[Erimus 63 481]

26 minutes ago, Prowler said:

I had confidence in a mid table finish at the start of the season. I'm now barely confident we'll be in this league next season. 

I'm also quite close to losing all interest, this entire scenario is practically making me lose any passion I have left. 

I don't know what the problem is with Gibson?  Obviously he's decided not to plough anymore money into the club at this moment. What he'll do next in January is anyone's guess? Will he back Woodgate, or let the slide continue and sell the rest of the crown jewels. There are more questions than answers? as for me I think Gibson's gone senile...

[wilsoncgp 9,283]

For those who are saying they've lost interest and/or passion,  do you feel better or worse than last season? I've never seen the fan-base or many fan-bases in general more dejected than us last year but arguably we were in a much better place than we are now.

[Prowler 197]

Worse to be fair, we had the opportunity to change and we seem to have got worse. Attack and defence has got worse, yet we have the same players? Promises of progressive football that never came as they were abandoned pretty much at the first hurdle. 

It's just bloody awful at the moment and id actually rather be at work than watch or listen to us.