Changing Times 12,347 Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 1 hour ago, Mfcdanny said: Your right. It's like Southampton letting gaston go out on loan to us. If you sit and think about it there has been loads of players who have been let go by a side and have turned out to be a good player. De bruyne and salah for example He was on £60k per week and they didn't want him. It's nothing like Reece Oxford. As it also turns out that Ramirez was a *** then they possibly had more reasons to get rid of him, as did we in the end. Link to post Share on other sites
Changing Times 12,347 Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 51 minutes ago, Jamie-H said: The goal that has ended him at Augsburg was a blind poked backpass midway in his own half through to Harit who scored the winner on November 3rd he's been on ice ever since it's got to be horrible for him. The smaller errors he's made this season have apparently been similar to that i.e loose passes taking a little too much time on the ball in his own half etc. None of the criticisms I've seen put to him are he can't defend it's that he's not 'Bundesliga ready' whatever that means, we've all seen Saville/Shotton/Howson pass it loosely in our own half it's maybe just not punished as much at our level so easier to coach him out of it or for him to adapt? I don't know but I'm pretty confident a fit Reece Oxford would improve our defence in a 3 at the back but if we go to the 433 I think he'd be a very good CDM anchoring the midfield he's got a good passing range and for his size he's got a turn of speed that our midfielders don't really have. If his mistakes just cause everyone to write him off before he comes whilst clamouring for the Ayala and Gibson combo that looked like a clownshow in 2015 at Wembley both Norwich goals you could put on either of them to be honest if we're just writing players off for mistakes they didn't turn out too badly. With a bit of coaching Ayala became less complacent and Gibson got tighter to people quicker around the box, people always look back on things remembering the good parts like there was no flaws along the way. The misplaced passes/dithering on the ball stuff Oxford's been blasted in Germany for is definitely things that he can figure out in my opinion especially if he's in the team week in week out. The goal that ended him at Augsburg? I'm not going to quibble with this as such because you sound like you know far more about him than me, but a quick look at this season's stats would suggest that it wasn't down to any one incident. He's had a couple of 15 min sub appearances this season and two starts. All told he's played just over 300 mins of football this season so he's certainly not a regular who is being banished because of a mistake. Not being Bundesliga ready sounds like a polite way of saying he isn't good enough to me? They don't have a huge amount of money invested in him so there's really no good reason for them to get rid of him unless there are serious question marks about his ability or some off the field stuff. Similarly, West Ham accepted a low fee for a player of such apparent huge potential, which seems odd when they didn't have lots of money tied up in him. The last time he played representative football for any of the young England sides was in 2017 if I'm looking at this correctly. That seems a long time ago for a youth international who is still only 21. I'd say that he simply hasn't kicked on at all from the potential he showed when he first came through or there are issues with him outside of football that have been holding him back. Either way, this would appear to be a bit of a reclamation project to me and we should treat it in those terms. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
LinoJo3 3,191 Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 He maybe just struggled to adapt to a foreign country/league? It happens as we’ve seen for ourselves. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Changing Times 12,347 Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 8 minutes ago, LinoJo3 said: He maybe just struggled to adapt to a foreign country/league? It happens as we’ve seen for ourselves. But he struggled at West Ham as well so I don't think it is as simple as that. He didn't play much for West Ham, he didn't play much for Reading, he didn't play much for Borussia Monchengladbach and he didn't play much for Augsburg. I'm not saying he's a bust but that's four clubs at a fairly young age and two of those clubs are happy to move on from him despite him being contracted there and presumably on relatively low wages. If you thought there was a player there and money wasn't a factor then what would the sense be in moving him on? You'd keep him, work with him and develop the potential. You wouldn't walk away from a four year deal unless there were good reasons to do so. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
wilsoncgp 9,283 Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 I think what you've said makes a lot of sense CT but another potential thing is clubs were expecting to take on a more ready player given how long he's been around? Reading took him on when they were third in the league in 2017 as an 18 year old, maybe they just didn't see fit to change a winning team very often? Not being ready for the Bundesliga at his age and younger hardly seems like a huge blight on the lad either. He could well be a victim of his own early success, being put into situations beyond him too early as a result of being a name everyone has known since he was 16. The Augsburg situation is an interesting one though. Being sold for very little by a side who could have put a premium on him and already being touted out by the club that bought him 6 months later? If Augsburg just think he needs a loan to develop and want to keep him, that seems fair enough. If they want to let him go permanently, it really does potentially throw up a red flag. Either way, until a club settles him down and gives him some stability, he's not going to get any better, if indeed he still has the potential. Link to post Share on other sites
sambaDTR 260 Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 Who were / are the Managers at West Ham and Augsburg? Obviously a class defender like Woodgate feels like he can coach this player to improve him. That’s if we get him. I like the reasoning of buying young players with potential. You can rarely teach an old dog new tricks. Link to post Share on other sites
Dynamo Kev 1,557 Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 50 minutes ago, Changing Times said: But he struggled at West Ham as well so I don't think it is as simple as that. He didn't play much for West Ham, he didn't play much for Reading, he didn't play much for Borussia Monchengladbach and he didn't play much for Augsburg. I'm not saying he's a bust but that's four clubs at a fairly young age and two of those clubs are happy to move on from him despite him being contracted there and presumably on relatively low wages. If you thought there was a player there and money wasn't a factor then what would the sense be in moving him on? You'd keep him, work with him and develop the potential. You wouldn't walk away from a four year deal unless there were good reasons to do so. ct we are playing with one fit true CB. might not be very good. but hes a cb and we are clearly desperate for one. young lad would likely get on great with the rest of our squad and enjoy being here. he'll be better off here hopefully we see an improvement on the pitch to. Link to post Share on other sites
wilsoncgp 9,283 Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 13 minutes ago, sambaDTR said: Who were / are the Managers at West Ham and Augsburg? Obviously a class defender like Woodgate feels like he can coach this player to improve him. That’s if we get him. I like the reasoning of buying young players with potential. You can rarely teach an old dog new tricks. Well this is the flip side of the argument too, isn't it? If he does still have the potential and it's been mismanaged for 5 years, what a time to go in and get it on the cheap. We have somewhat similar previous with that; different times maybe but Dani Ayala arrived here under a similar background, leaving Liverpool and never getting a chance at Norwich, 2 loan spells later and he's permanently a Boro player for £350k. Link to post Share on other sites
Changing Times 12,347 Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 20 minutes ago, wilsoncgp said: I think what you've said makes a lot of sense CT but another potential thing is clubs were expecting to take on a more ready player given how long he's been around? Reading took him on when they were third in the league in 2017 as an 18 year old, maybe they just didn't see fit to change a winning team very often? Not being ready for the Bundesliga at his age and younger hardly seems like a huge blight on the lad either. He could well be a victim of his own early success, being put into situations beyond him too early as a result of being a name everyone has known since he was 16. The Augsburg situation is an interesting one though. Being sold for very little by a side who could have put a premium on him and already being touted out by the club that bought him 6 months later? If Augsburg just think he needs a loan to develop and want to keep him, that seems fair enough. If they want to let him go permanently, it really does potentially throw up a red flag. Either way, until a club settles him down and gives him some stability, he's not going to get any better, if indeed he still has the potential. He hasn't had any success though, that's sort of my point. He had a brilliant debut and then didn't really do much of anything for the next four years. West Ham weren't taking him on, they already had him and were happy to let him go for a couple of million. By the sounds of it they weren't exactly sorry to see him go. It's possible that was down to the manager just not rating him but now the same thing is happening at Augsburg possibly. They can't have signed him expecting him to be a superstar because he clearly isn't that and wasn't that when he was on loan there last season. If their intention is to keep him in the long term and just loan him out for the rest of this season say then I'd probably wonder what the point is in us going for him. If they are looking to loan him and move him on permanently then you'd have to ask why that is after such a short period of time. It might be that he's on decent money over there although that would again make me question why we'd be after him. You're right that not being ready for the Bundesliga isn't the be all and end all but it feels like an odd thing for a Bundesliga club to say a few months after signing him, don't you think? Especially when they had him on loan beforehand - they had to have an idea of where he was at in his development. The way I would look at it is to forget who he is, forget his debut, which is just one game anyway, look at the rest of what he's done and take it from there. I would almost view the signing, if we make it, in the same vein as the Browne signing, a bit of a punt basically. Link to post Share on other sites
Dynamo Kev 1,557 Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 yep its a punt. dont take risks you dont get the rewards. but its a low risk so probably worth it with how we are struggling at cb. for all we know he just ants to come home and regrets going there again. Link to post Share on other sites
Changing Times 12,347 Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 16 minutes ago, Dynamo Kev said: ct we are playing with one fit true CB. might not be very good. but hes a cb and we are clearly desperate for one. young lad would likely get on great with the rest of our squad and enjoy being here. he'll be better off here hopefully we see an improvement on the pitch to. There's no reason to think he'll be better off here though. We've just loaned out two lads who we recently signed precisely because they haven't been better off here. We do actually have other central defenders - Wood is on the bench every week. Maybe it's time we gave him a few games and had a look at what he's about rather than spending money on loan signings? I'm not actually against signing Oxford, I just don't know what it is we'd be signing but it doesn't feel like it's the kid who looked like a potential star a few years back. And at the moment, I'd sooner we saved whatever money we do have for the summer and next season rather than putting more money into loan players (unless it's with a longer term transfer in mind). Link to post Share on other sites
Changing Times 12,347 Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 Just now, Dynamo Kev said: yep its a punt. dont take risks you dont get the rewards. but its a low risk so probably worth it with how we are struggling at cb. for all we know he just ants to come home and regrets going there again. The risk thing obviously comes down to the cost, mate. If it's as cheap as chips then it really doesn't matter, sign the lad and see what happens. If it's not then we're spending money on a punt when we don't have a lot to spend, unless the last year or so has been complete *** of course. Link to post Share on other sites
LBP 3,035 Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 (edited) I'd love gibson back, left footed and a nice little back 5 all from the academy. I hope we're still looking for an attacking player for the left side so we could play tav in the midfield 3 feel like he's more suited to that role driving forward with the ball as opposed to beating the fullback. Be nice to have someone who could cut in on the left to compliment Roberts on the other side, both full backs could overlap and Howson covering for Spence while Gibbo shifts across Link to post Share on other sites
Mfcdanny 771 Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 6 hours ago, DurhamRed said: That's kinda like saying if Traore was all that Barcelona won't of let him go 😂 That's a perfect example. Too many people banging on about risks. You have to. Take them. Why don't we just give the lad a go if we sign him instead of critising players. He's only 21. He must have some ability. He was on loan at Augsburg. Then they signed him. So they seen something in him. I've made the mistake of writing players off before that turn out good. Plenty in the boro squad this season. Link to post Share on other sites
Mfcdanny 771 Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 6 hours ago, Changing Times said: He was on £60k per week and they didn't want him. It's nothing like Reece Oxford. As it also turns out that Ramirez was a *** then they possibly had more reasons to get rid of him, as did we in the end. OK then. Traore? Not good enough for barca and villa? It does happen you know. Teams let players go and they end up good Link to post Share on other sites
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