Jump to content
oneBoro Forum
SmogDane

January transfer window 19/20 season Post Mortem

Recommended Posts

That international youth tournament only included top clubs so no Danish team was present 😪

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, Changing Times said:

No wonder the Danes are rubbish at everything if this kind of nonsense is used by their high achievers 🙄🤦‍♂️

I took a look at the Spanish youth teams and almost all players are born before june in all their teams from u15-u21. More or less every age group only has 1-3 players that are born later than june. Incredible really. It only changes in their senior squad but still about 2/3 are from the first half of the year. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, Borodane said:

That international youth tournament only included top clubs so no Danish team was present 😪

They shouldn't have allowed anyone from Denmark to even visit the tournament so they couldn't taint it 🙃

I'm not completely sure how the age rules work in different countries but in England the cut off point is the 31st August.  So if your 16th birthday is on the 31st of August then you play in one age group but if your 16th birthday is a day later on 1st September then you are playing in the next age group (assuming the same year of birth).  You can potentially get players who are almost a year older than others in the same age group and thus obviously players who are almost a year younger as well.  It might be that the people selecting those kids at younger ages are considering that but it's flawed thinking.  Kids abilities aren't reliant on what month they are born in.  If there are really coaches out there who are daft enough to think that kids born in the first half of the calendar year should get preferential treatment then they shouldn't be coaching anyone at all, which is probably what that actually shows.

I think you'll see the numbers change at senior levels because you're mixing age groups at that point rather than having to stick within one age group or a selection of age groups so there won't be the same inherent bias.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Changing Times said:

They shouldn't have allowed anyone from Denmark to even visit the tournament so they couldn't taint it 🙃

I'm not completely sure how the age rules work in different countries but in England the cut off point is the 31st August.  So if your 16th birthday is on the 31st of August then you play in one age group but if your 16th birthday is a day later on 1st September then you are playing in the next age group (assuming the same year of birth).  You can potentially get players who are almost a year older than others in the same age group and thus obviously players who are almost a year younger as well.  It might be that the people selecting those kids at younger ages are considering that but it's flawed thinking.  Kids abilities aren't reliant on what month they are born in.  If there are really coaches out there who are daft enough to think that kids born in the first half of the calendar year should get preferential treatment then they shouldn't be coaching anyone at all, which is probably what that actually shows.

I think you'll see the numbers change at senior levels because you're mixing age groups at that point rather than having to stick within one age group or a selection of age groups so there won't be the same inherent bias.

 

That was kind of his point. We drop a lot of talent (not just in football) because people tend to think in boxes. What you are saying about the age groups is exactly what's happening. There is a vast majority of players born earlier in the year in the youth teams. Physical attributes are more apparent in the earlier years which is probably why coaches tend to choose them. The are stronger, taller, faster etc. (generally). As you say it evens itself out in the senior teams when you don't seperate players because of age and the physical attribute starts to even itself out. But by that time you might have dropped a talented player because he was born in november. He showed a graph from the aforementioned youth tournament at the number of players born between january-march was staggering, I also went through the Italian youth team and while they had a few more players born later in the year the pattern was more or less the same.  I did a random check on the recent u17 world championship and the pattern was the same. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's usually a pattern with the oldest players in their year groups at school being picked by academies. The last time I checked more professionals in this country were born between September and say xmas than after xmas. 

The explanation is that the older kids, who are more physically developed get picked and the smaller kids don't. The bigger kids then get years of coaching at an academy so their advantage is two-fold. 

I've thought for years that smaller kids who are talented but lacking in the physical attributes should be allowed to play in a younger age group and vice versa for the bigger kids. A lot of very talented, smaller kids in this country have fallen by the wayside simply because they are not 6 feet tall. 

As previously mentioned a club that starts thinking outside the box and being more innovate may eventually be the club that finds the next Xavi and Iniesta. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Duvel said:

There's usually a pattern with the oldest players in their year groups at school being picked by academies. The last time I checked more professionals in this country were born between September and say xmas than after xmas. 

The explanation is that the older kids, who are more physically developed get picked and the smaller kids don't. The bigger kids then get years of coaching at an academy so their advantage is two-fold. 

I've thought for years that smaller kids who are talented but lacking in the physical attributes should be allowed to play in a younger age group and vice versa for the bigger kids. A lot of very talented, smaller kids in this country have fallen by the wayside simply because they are not 6 feet tall. 

As previously mentioned a club that starts thinking outside the box and being more innovate may eventually be the club that finds the next Xavi and Iniesta. 

Funny thing is Iniesta was very close to being axed by Barca. (Another story Hjulmand told). Iniestas youth manager wanted to axe him because he was too small, but at Barcelona they have a rule saying that a youth manager can't axe a player unless two other managers agree. One other manager agreed to axe him but the youth manager in the age group above said "send him up to me and I'll take responsibility". The rest is history.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Borodane said:

Funny thing is Iniesta was very close to being axed by Barca. (Another story Hjulmand told). Iniestas youth manager wanted to axe him because he was too small, but at Barcelona they have a rule saying that a youth manager can't axe a player unless two other managers agree. One other manager agreed to axe him but the youth manager in the age group above said "send him up to me and I'll take responsibility". The rest is history.

Yeah I think they were both reckoned to be too small at one time in the Barca academy. 

The question is whether they would have been discarded in England. I'm not sure how things work in most modern academies now but hopefully there's more emphasis on technical ability and less emphasis on size and strength. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Borodane said:

Funny thing is Iniesta was very close to being axed by Barca. (Another story Hjulmand told). Iniestas youth manager wanted to axe him because he was too small, but at Barcelona they have a rule saying that a youth manager can't axe a player unless two other managers agree. One other manager agreed to axe him but the youth manager in the age group above said "send him up to me and I'll take responsibility". The rest is history.

That also goes back to my original point, if a player is talented but not physically strong enough to compete why not drop him down an age group for a couple of years until he catches up with his growth. 

The age group system in this country is far too rigid and favours size rather than ability. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Borodane said:

That was kind of his point. We drop a lot of talent (not just in football) because people tend to think in boxes. What you are saying about the age groups is exactly what's happening. There is a vast majority of players born earlier in the year in the youth teams. Physical attributes are more apparent in the earlier years which is probably why coaches tend to choose them. The are stronger, taller, faster etc. (generally). As you say it evens itself out in the senior teams when you don't seperate players because of age and the physical attribute starts to even itself out. But by that time you might have dropped a talented player because he was born in november. He showed a graph from the aforementioned youth tournament at the number of players born between january-march was staggering, I also went through the Italian youth team and while they had a few more players born later in the year the pattern was more or less the same.  I did a random check on the recent u17 world championship and the pattern was the same. 

They aren't though, that's my point.  I do get that coaches might think in those terms though, which is why they shouldn't be coaching at all.  At young ages, 6/7 years old, there aren't physical differences like that.  There are barely any differences at all between boys and girls at young ages let alone just between boys born in different months.  That's when you're really starting coaching, if not beforehand.  If older age group coaches are focused on stuff like that then it will simply show when some of those kids don't make it as seniors.  Those coaches aren't doing their jobs properly - they are more interested in trying to win now than develop good players, which is the only thing they should be there for.  If that's his point then yeah he is spot on and youth coaching clearly isn't as good as it should be 👍

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Borodane said:

Was at a conference last week where Kasper Hjulmand, Denmarks future national coach was a guest speaker, He took us through his career and how he works with talents and taking his former club from nothing to champions with one of the smallest budgets in the league. He is absolutely magnificent at working with young players and player management. He was the guy I wanted when we signed Monk, Pulis and Woodgate. Oh well, back to my point. To make a club succesfull you need three pillars; strategy, know-how and ressources. 85% of succes in professional football comes from having more ressources than your rivals; money wins medals. If you haven't got money you at least need a clear strategy that is followed 100% by everyone at the club and you need know-how in key positions. As he said that my heart sank a bit because it's pretty clear that we have neither. There was talk of a strategy in the summer but that is no-where to be seen. Know-how😂 Just look at aour recruitment team and rookie management team!

Bonus info: players born in the first half of the year are more likely to make it. They are usually picked first when clubs/trainers pick out who they want to work with when they are very young - 7/8 years old. This gives them a huge advantage in their development. Hjulmand provided an example; he attended a youth tournament in Turkey at a point where some of Europes top clubs were present. Out of 192 players only 6 were born in the last six months of the year😲 That said there are obviously plenty of players who come from behind and outshines, but in youth football the top talent pool is dominated by players born earlier in the calender year. T

The current danish u16 team has two players born later than july and tha'ts in september

The u18 has one in october and one 1 december. The rest is pre July

The u19 has two in november. The rest is pre august.

The u20 has one in September. The rest is earlier.

The u21  has five players after august. 

 

A good read. Hjulmand is a very talented man. Nothing is random with him. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Changing Times said:

They aren't though, that's my point.  I do get that coaches might think in those terms though, which is why they shouldn't be coaching at all.  At young ages, 6/7 years old, there aren't physical differences like that.  There are barely any differences at all between boys and girls at young ages let alone just between boys born in different months.  That's when you're really starting coaching, if not beforehand.  If older age group coaches are focused on stuff like that then it will simply show when some of those kids don't make it as seniors.  Those coaches aren't doing their jobs properly - they are more interested in trying to win now than develop good players, which is the only thing they should be there for.  If that's his point then yeah he is spot on and youth coaching clearly isn't as good as it should be 👍

 

I think the developmental difference between kids even born just a few months apart is bigger than you’re giving it credit for. You also see it mentally, children born earlier in the year as a general trend perform better at school. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Duvel said:

That also goes back to my original point, if a player is talented but not physically strong enough to compete why not drop him down an age group for a couple of years until he catches up with his growth. 

The age group system in this country is far too rigid and favours size rather than ability. 

Did Pulis help develop that system? 😕 😄 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Duvel said:

There's usually a pattern with the oldest players in their year groups at school being picked by academies. The last time I checked more professionals in this country were born between September and say xmas than after xmas. 

The explanation is that the older kids, who are more physically developed get picked and the smaller kids don't. The bigger kids then get years of coaching at an academy so their advantage is two-fold. 

I've thought for years that smaller kids who are talented but lacking in the physical attributes should be allowed to play in a younger age group and vice versa for the bigger kids. A lot of very talented, smaller kids in this country have fallen by the wayside simply because they are not 6 feet tall. 

As previously mentioned a club that starts thinking outside the box and being more innovate may eventually be the club that finds the next Xavi and Iniesta. 

I would do it the other way but then I like being different because I'm an awkward get.  Kids should play more in more mixed age situations but with those who are older than them.  When I was a kid I played with lads a few years older than me quite a lot, just socially not organised.  When I started playing organised football and other sports I was put into teams in age groups above mine.  I wasn't big for my age so it had nothing to do with that.  I think playing a lot with the older kids forced me to develop certain things more quickly - technical skills and mental skills specifically.  I had to think quicker to make up for the lack of size and speed, I had to be a bit more skilful because I couldn't just sprint past everyone.  I never took any sport seriously, I just liked playing for fun and wasn't interested in coaching and stuff like that, but I can't believe that other kids who do take it seriously wouldn't benefit a lot from what I inadvertently gained a bit from.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

10-12 months difference in age (and growth) is a lot in young children up to about the age they start primary school, then I would say it pretty much evens out. 

The big difference comes when they hit early teens and puberty. Those that did their growing earlier always used to be the ones picked up by clubs. I remember having a trial at a pro club and the first team at under 13s was like a team of men. 

In the past the majority of academies at teenage level would have discarded the majority of the smallest players favouring strength, pace and power. I'm not sure whether things have evolved in the last few years or not. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.



  • Latest Posts

    • I looked on Windows website and it gave me an iso file to download, I just assumed it would work off a flash drive haha
    • What do you mean by you installed the Win8 iso onto a flash drive? The iso is meant to be burned to a DVD-rom.  It should be an executable file for a flash drive.
    • In no particular order:   Juninho v Arsenal. Jan 2004. League cup semi final, first leg against the Invincibles. That was when I started feeling that this was our year. Maccarone v Basel. April 2006. UEFA Cup Quarters. 90th minute winner to take us through to Steau, where he did it again! Stuani v Brighton. May 2016. Championship. Stadium is bouncing, packed to the rafters, we only need a draw to gain promotion to the Premier League under Karanka. The party started at that moment and even a Brighton leveller couldn't dampen the mood!  
    • Update: I installed the Windows 8 iso on a flash drive and plugged it into the laptop to boot up, but it doesn't appear to be working. Still trying to boot up from the HDD instead and ignoring the USB.   I am still looking for a CD Boot up disc but I'm not even sure if that will work now 
    • God, I couldn't even pick just three.  Lots to choose from over the years, including some of the great choices selected above 👍 Hendrie's two against Luton, bye bye Ayresome but hello Premier League and The Riverside.  Ravanelli at Wembley 96/97, it looked like we were going to do it finally but then we didn't.  Festa, a whole week later, at Old Trafford against Chesterfield, when it looked like we'd avoided an absolute catastrophe only for history to repeat itself.  Rav's last minute penna winner against Villa at the beginning of the week of destiny.  The whole first 5 mins of the Liverpool League Cup semi final in 97/98.  The first few minutes of the second half against Oxford in the same season.  Festa's last minute equaliser at Southampton when we were down to 9 men for a 3-3 draw in the 98/99 season and Brian Deane's goal to put us 3-0 up at Man Utd a few weeks later - I think that was the last game Man Utd lost that season before winning the treble - "We're gonna win the league", well maybe not.  Boksic twice up at St James park against the Geordies a couple of seasons later.  01/02 season against Man Utd in the cup, hardly any bugger there because there was some argument about the ticket pricing and the fact that it was a lunchtime kick off on the telly, two goals in the last 5 mins to win it, hurrah!  We had some good times against Man Utd back then for whatever reason.  Speaking of which, the following season at home against them on Boxing day, all three goals were decent but the Job one at the end to clinch it because of the second or two it took for Maccarone to head the ball across to him was nice.  Same sort of reason but earlier in that season, against the Mackems at home and Nemeths second goal (our third) when he kind of ran through on his own to score in front of the North Stand - I think it was just the sense of anticipation really. 03/04 season in the Millennium Stadium, Cardiff.  The first 6 or 7 mins as a whole but I was partly hysterical throughout the entire game really when I think about it.  It was ours to lose after that start and unfortunately we seemed to experts in finding ways to do just that up until that point.  Same season, scoring twice in injury time maybe to get a 3-3 draw at home against Leicester and another win at Old Trafford, Juninho scoring twice with his head! and Job getting the winner after Man Utd came back to level.  How did Man Utd win so much back then when we used to give them a going over on a regular basis?  Weird, football, isn't it?  04/05 season, not a goal but Schwarzer saving that penalty at Man City in injury time on the last day of the season to get us into Europe again has to be right up there.  The following season has to be the European goals already mentioned above, the games as a whole were mental but scoring late on to win not just once but twice is about as crazy as it gets.  Humping Man Utd (again) and Chelsea was also a lot of fun. After that point things got darker and those amazing moments never seemed to come around, at least not for me anyway.  There were always odd games or whatever but we were in decline and you could feel it.  We had some good games under Mowbray and obviously we were in the hunt a couple of times during seasons but we always fell away.  I think you're probably waiting until the 14/15 season for some more great moments - Leadbitter's freekick at Huddersfield was fantastic, Bamford's goal at Derby and the own goal at Norwich, the play off games against Brentford.  I stopped going away from home by this point though so most of those weren't experienced in the same way, the home play off game of course was though.  Following season, both games against Brighton had goals which got me going and against Derby over Xmas with the two goals in two minutes.  Nugent against Hull and Forshaw against Reading, mental. Probably loads I've missed out as well.  I think I just enjoy us scoring goals in any circumstances 😀
×
×
  • Create New...