Crystal Palace U23 vs Middlesbrough U23

[RiseAgainst 3,792]

I suspect many people at the club felt Woodgate's approach to how we should play was the right one in theory. The reality was - as many of us strongly suspected at the time - we don't have the players/talent in the squad to play the way Woodgate hoped.

That doesn't mean we should abandon the principle or ambition of a high-press attacking strategy in the long-term, though. And since the U23s are by nature for the future, it seems sensible to persevere with the experiment.

Great result, and great OP @GRTourist!

[DanFromDownSouth 1,706]

5 hours ago, Changing Times said:

So, inside two games, Woodgate was able to determine that the current first team squad couldn't play that way and changed to more functional football, which has also been largely unsuccessful, but we just kept playing it anyway?

May not have been the first 2 games that he based his decision on abandoning his style.

Could well have been the full pre-season (14th June he was appointed) he had with the group of players that heavily influenced his decision.

Could well have been the poor transfer window we had in the summer that also influenced his decision.

Or potentially the fact he has been working in close proximity with these players since December 2017 that ultimately swayed whether they could play his preferred style and formation.

[Changing Times 12,339]

2 minutes ago, DanFromDownSouth said:

May not have been the first 2 games that he based his decision on abandoning his style.

Could well have been the full pre-season (14th June he was appointed) he had with the group of players that heavily influenced his decision.

Could well have been the poor transfer window we had in the summer that also influenced his decision.

Or potentially the fact he has been working in close proximity with these players since December 2017 that ultimately swayed whether they could play his preferred style and formation.

Why did he start with it then? 🙂

All of those things would have lead to the decision being taken before the season started rather than two games into it.  That third reason surely would have meant he wouldn't even try in the first place?

[DanFromDownSouth 1,706]

5 minutes ago, Changing Times said:

Why did he start with it then? 🙂

All of those things would have lead to the decision being taken before the season started rather than two games into it.  That third reason surely would have meant he wouldn't even try in the first place?

Maybe it was a way of showing those higher up, that the squad could play that way and with fine tuning (especially out wide) we could use that as our default. We signed 1 winger before the season began and none after it. 

If you were taking over after a period of the most turgid football we've probably played in my lifetime, would you openly come out and say the players you had can't cope with playing a more exciting brand of football? If Woodgate came out first press conference and said something along the lines of that;

1. How well would that go down with the squad?

2. How well would that go down with the fans?

 

[Changing Times 12,339]

16 minutes ago, DanFromDownSouth said:

Maybe it was a way of showing those higher up, that the squad could play that way and with fine tuning (especially out wide) we could use that as our default. We signed 1 winger before the season began and none after it. 

If you were taking over after a period of the most turgid football we've probably played in my lifetime, would you openly come out and say the players you had can't cope with playing a more exciting brand of football? If Woodgate came out first press conference and said something along the lines of that;

1. How well would that go down with the squad?

2. How well would that go down with the fans?

 

'Maybe it was a way of showing those higher up that the squad could play that way.'  Is that meant to say couldn't otherwise you've lost me?  We played two games that way to show that the squad could play that way with fine tuning and then we gave it up and did something else?

Assuming you meant couldn't, I'd assume that an easier way of doing that would be to say to the Chairman and Chief Executive that the squad wasn't good enough to play different football so I'm not going to bother with it.  Gibson isn't interested in attractive football anyway so what would he care, he was perfectly happy with Pulis.

If I was taking over after a period of turgid football I wouldn't openly come out and say the players couldn't cope with a more exciting brand of football.  However, I also wouldn't spend the pre-season trying to do just that and then begin the season doing just that only to stop and do something completely different, which incidentally, we don't appear to be able to cope all that well with either.

I'm not sure any of that holds up to much scrutiny?

[DanFromDownSouth 1,706]

@Changing Times yes it should say couldn't.

38 minutes ago, Changing Times said:

'Maybe it was a way of showing those higher up that the squad could play that way.'  Is that meant to say couldn't otherwise you've lost me?  We played two games that way to show that the squad could play that way with fine tuning and then we gave it up and did something else?

Assuming you meant couldn't, I'd assume that an easier way of doing that would be to say to the Chairman and Chief Executive that the squad wasn't good enough to play different football so I'm not going to bother with it.  Gibson isn't interested in attractive football anyway so what would he care, he was perfectly happy with Pulis.

If I was taking over after a period of turgid football I wouldn't openly come out and say the players couldn't cope with a more exciting brand of football.  However, I also wouldn't spend the pre-season trying to do just that and then begin the season doing just that only to stop and do something completely different, which incidentally, we don't appear to be able to cope all that well with either.

I'm not sure any of that holds up to much scrutiny?

How do we know, that Woodgate hasn't done just that and told Bausor and Gibson? Woodgate would have had plenty of time to assess the squad, who (or what type of player) he would have needed to keep and to bring in and had a gameplan in place. After the initial few games our window ends with a distinct lack of activity, Woodgate reassess his plan and decides to adapt it. 

I'm sure you have made plans, then things out of your control happen, and you adapt those original plans?

[Changing Times 12,339]

10 minutes ago, DanFromDownSouth said:

@Changing Times yes it should say couldn't.

How do we know, that Woodgate hasn't done just that and told Bausor and Gibson? Woodgate would have had plenty of time to assess the squad, who (or what type of player) he would have needed to keep and to bring in and had a gameplan in place. After the initial few games our window ends with a distinct lack of activity, Woodgate reassess his plan and decides to adapt it. 

I'm sure you have made plans, then things out of your control happen, and you adapt those original plans?

Because he wouldn't tell the pair of them that and then start the season playing that way, would he?  The squad can't do this but we're going to spend all summer doing it anyway and then after a couple of games I'll give up and change it to something else that doesn't work particularly well either to prove a point? 

You suggested that Woodgate may already know who could and couldn't do it based on working with them for 18 months prior to be being appointed.  But then knowing that they couldn't play that way, he still did it anyway?  Not very logical.

I wouldn't say we've adapted a plan, we've completely changed it.  What are we doing now that resembles it?  I don't see a single thing.  I'm not sure what you mean by things out of his control unless you mean lots of signings?  There was no way that was going to happen this summer and the players we have signed are players that he identified so again I'm not sure where you're going with this. 

Can I ask, do you think we're just a player or two away from being able to play the way we originally appeared to be looking to do?  It sort of feels like it was just the lack of a couple of signings that you think has held us back?

[DanFromDownSouth 1,706]

On 12/4/2019 at 8:46 PM, Changing Times said:

Because he wouldn't tell the pair of them that and then start the season playing that way, would he?  The squad can't do this but we're going to spend all summer doing it anyway and then after a couple of games I'll give up and change it to something else that doesn't work particularly well either to prove a point? 

You suggested that Woodgate may already know who could and couldn't do it based on working with them for 18 months prior to be being appointed.  But then knowing that they couldn't play that way, he still did it anyway?  Not very logical. (1)

I wouldn't say we've adapted a plan, we've completely changed it.  What are we doing now that resembles it?  I don't see a single thing.  I'm not sure what you mean by things out of his control unless you mean lots of signings?  There was no way that was going to happen this summer and the players we have signed are players that he identified so again I'm not sure where you're going with this. (2)

Can I ask, do you think we're just a player or two away from being able to play the way we originally appeared to be looking to do?  It sort of feels like it was just the lack of a couple of signings that you think has held us back? (3)

Sorry to leave you waiting, work has been a bit hectic. I've broken your points into 3 areas. 

1. The point I'm trying (and failing) to make is that from Woodgate's original press conference it seems he has a preferred style that he would like to play. This style is his ultimate end goal, how he would like us to play. This is obviously not going to happen overnight, hence why we have spent the pre-season and first few games playing "his style".

It is my opinon that this is laying the foundations for us to play this way. At the present moment in time I do not feel the squad can competently play this style and as such we have reverted back to a style that the players have a familiarity with, that they can play.

When Jokanovic took over Fulham, I'd argue that the free flowing style they went up with was certainly not how they started playing under Jokanovic in his first 6 months in charge. But I'd almost guarantee that he was training the group of players he had certain elements of his preferred style. 

2. I'm one of the first to acknowledge that we weren't going to be signing 10 players due to our financial constraints. But to answer your question I do feel that if we had got another couple of wide players in, we may have seen Woodgate persist with "his style". I do also feel however that to get to this end point in style it would take more than just the summer window and the upcoming window.

By saying this about signings I'm not admitting that we would be a swash buckling side that would sweep all before them, but it would be seen as another piece of the puzzle to help us towards Woodgate's style. Again adding to the foundations that are slowly been knitted together, like the fact we played a certain way during pre-season and the first couple of games. 

Basically what I'm trying to get across is that I feel we are aiming for a certain style of play and that we are adding bit by bit certain elements of this style. Whether it is the pressing element, like we saw in the Luton, Brentford, Hull and Bristol City games (in my opinion), interestingly we played a 4-3-3 in 3/4 of those games. Or whether it is by the need of having more squad depth to allow us to try and play a 4-3-3 on a more frequent basis.

3. I've kind of half answered this in the bit above. It is of my opinion that we would see a 4-3-3 a lot more often this season if we had signed another winger (or 2) in the summer. The fact that we didn't for me is a key reason in us playing a back 5 often. I also feel a big problem is our total lack of creativity in the team.

I also do not feel that we are a player or 2 away from implementing Woodgate's system. Jokanovic signed 11 permanent players in his first full season at Fulham, I don't think we need quite as many but certainly there are key positions we need filling. A striker who will press, wingers/inside forwards, a play maker in the middle, a defensive midfielder and for me a centre half that is comfortable with the ball at their feet.