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Apparently has the backing still

I honestly don't see where it stops. Honestly think that Woodgate is bullet proof and Gibson is ready for us to go to league 1 only to deliver some crappy PR rallying cry in the summer about "oh we di

Bielsa is a world-renowned coach with decades of experience. He's cited by the likes of Guardiola, Pochettino, and Simeone as an inspirational and guiding figure in their careers. Woodgate is loc

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1 hour ago, OldManGravz said:

Pears

Moukoudi Fry Friend

Spence Claytz Sav Coulson

Tav Wing

Fletch

 

That'd be how I started this game if I was Woodgate. Maybe a back 3 of Howson Moukoudi Fry instead but that leaves Fry on the left side of defence and he has looked a bit weaker there, so I will stick to my guns

I thought this was an obvious formation and selection for last game. All week Woody talked about defence and clean sheets, so why not put out ur best DM on the team. Saville and Clayton are good cover for the back 3. In the end he over thought his team selection last game.

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2 hours ago, wilsoncgp said:

A point from Woody's presser. He seems to suggest he went to experienced players because young players weren't keeping clean sheets for him. He acknowledges the experienced players didn't do it either recently so has to rethink that but... have we lost more goals due to young players playing at full-back/wing-back? Or is he blaming Fry for not delivering? Tav? What exactly does he think in the balance of picking and not picking young players has caused him not to get clean sheets?

You'd have to assume he's blaming Coulson and Spence, since those are the two he dropped after Luton.  Fry is injured rather than dropped and Tavernier hasn't started the last couple, although he started the two before that against Brentford and Blackburn.  As Spence didn't make his debut until the beginning of December, it would be harsh to blame him for our ills, unless Woodgate thinks we were doing ok beforehand!

Here's a few stats to consider (league games only):

Spence has started 11 games.  We've conceded 8 goals in those games at an average of 0.73 per game

Spence hasn't started 23 games.  We've conceded 36 goals in those games at an average of 1.57 per game.

Coulson has started 15 games.  We've conceded 18 goals in those games at an average of 1.2 per game.

Coulson hasn't started 19 games.  We've conceded 26 goals in those games at an average of 1.37 per game.

Spence and Coulson have started 8 games together.  We've conceded 6 goals in those games at an average of 0.75 per game.

Spence and Coulson haven't started 26 games together.  We've conceded 38 goals in those games at an average of 1.46 per game.

 

In the games Spence has started we've gained 19 points at an average of 1.73 per game.  The games he hasn't started we've gained 18 points at an average of 0.78 per game.  

In the games Coulson has started we've gained 20 points at an average of 1.33 per game.  The games he hasn't started we've gained 17 points at an average of 0.9 per game.

The games they've started together we've gained 14 points at an average of 1.75 per game.  The games they haven't started together we've gained 23 points at an average of 0.89.

 

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These are just stats.  I don't claim the give they answers to everything or even anything.  It's just information that can be used to look at things.  It's entirely possible that Coulson and Spence both just happened to be in the side when it became better defensively and started gaining more points.  So it would be no more than a coincidence and over time the stats would revert to the teams average.  But it's also possible that them being in the side made us better and that this is reflected in the stats above.  

In the past I've spoken about the mind playing tricks on people because of received/conventional wisdom.  So in this example, received wisdom would be that younger, inexperienced players make you weaker defensively because they make more mistakes.  I'm sure most would say that's fair enough, at least to some extent.  And because this thought is already in people's minds then that's what they 'see' or 'look' for in games and therefore it becomes true and reinforces the received wisdom.  I do wonder if that could be the case here?  Our worst defensive efforts this season came in games where neither of the youngsters played (Sheff Wed at home, Leeds away, that shambles of a game at Birmingham come to mind) and yet I read on here (and now from Woodgate) that they are to blame for us conceding goals with the reason that's often give that it's because teams are attacking those areas.  They've been attacking those areas all season long and every other area.  But that's not the problem anyway.  Because our defensive record this season is the 12th best in the league.  The issue is that our goal scoring record is the joint worst in the league and that's why we are in trouble.

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2 hours ago, wilsoncgp said:

A point from Woody's presser. He seems to suggest he went to experienced players because young players weren't keeping clean sheets for him. He acknowledges the experienced players didn't do it either recently so has to rethink that but... have we lost more goals due to young players playing at full-back/wing-back? Or is he blaming Fry for not delivering? Tav? What exactly does he think in the balance of picking and not picking young players has caused him not to get clean sheets?

Not that I think Fry's had a good season but McNair and Howson are the 2 more experienced players who have been consistently in the team in defence, Howson in particular who might be out of position but his experience in the last few games has not shown at all. The way we play, Spence and Coulson don't actually end up having to do a lot of defending anyway and throughout the season, that appears to be very much by choice, not through the lack of individual performances.

He's treading a fine line picking a side in experience vs. youth that isn't benefiting him, there's no doubt about it. His relatively gung-ho approach to answering questions on selection decisions is not winning him any support, if anything it's combining with the awful results to make him sound like a stubborn git. I appreciate his honesty of course, I'd rather he tells us what he thinks as honest as possible as it gives us the best chance of judging his mindset. Right now, it's just making it easier to criticise him though.

Sounds like he really, genuinely is at a loss, rather than just being stubborn. Seems like he's saying what he'd like to do, versus what he's actually able to do with the squad he has, then getting confused between the two.

He's having to play high stakes poker with a pretty average hand (while also being a novice player) and no matter what he tries, he keeps getting taken to the cleaners.

Also, experienced isn't necessarily the same as good. Unless, as rumours suggest, he has lost the dressing room and they just aren't trying anymore.

Feeling the tiniest twinge of sympathy for him, but really this is 90% on him (at this stage - 100% on Gibson for hiring him in the first place). If he had any decency he'd have handed in his resignation weeks ago and forced Gibson to find someone who actually knows how to manage.

 

Quite honestly, at this stage, I think its irrelevant what team he puts out. The youngsters will maybe lack the experience to deal with what Leeds throw at us and the senior players won't put in the effort. Either way, the end result will be the same.

(Now I've said this, watch us scrape a flukey draw)

 

Edited by AnglianRed
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12 minutes ago, AnglianRed said:

If he had any decency he'd have handed in his resignation weeks ago and forced Gibson to find someone who actually knows how to manage.

I don't think walking away from a mess you've helped to create is a decent thing to do, to be honest. I don't personally get that point of view, I know you're not the only one who has said it and I know it was said plenty last season under Pulis too but if he isn't doing his job properly, it's not on him to judge himself so badly to walk away in my opinion. It's on the club to remove him. I think it shows a lack of character to walk away and take yourself away from the responsibility of it.

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45 minutes ago, Changing Times said:

You'd have to assume he's blaming Coulson and Spence, since those are the two he dropped after Luton.  Fry is injured rather than dropped and Tavernier hasn't started the last couple, although he started the two before that against Brentford and Blackburn.  As Spence didn't make his debut until the beginning of December, it would be harsh to blame him for our ills, unless Woodgate thinks we were doing ok beforehand!

Here's a few stats to consider (league games only):

Spence has started 11 games.  We've conceded 8 goals in those games at an average of 0.73 per game

Spence hasn't started 23 games.  We've conceded 36 goals in those games at an average of 1.57 per game.

Coulson has started 15 games.  We've conceded 18 goals in those games at an average of 1.2 per game.

Coulson hasn't started 19 games.  We've conceded 26 goals in those games at an average of 1.37 per game.

Spence and Coulson have started 8 games together.  We've conceded 6 goals in those games at an average of 0.75 per game.

Spence and Coulson haven't started 26 games together.  We've conceded 38 goals in those games at an average of 1.46 per game.

 

In the games Spence has started we've gained 19 points at an average of 1.73 per game.  The games he hasn't started we've gained 18 points at an average of 0.78 per game.  

In the games Coulson has started we've gained 20 points at an average of 1.33 per game.  The games he hasn't started we've gained 17 points at an average of 0.9 per game.

The games they've started together we've gained 14 points at an average of 1.75 per game.  The games they haven't started together we've gained 23 points at an average of 0.89.

 

I was going to make fun of you and call you a nerd for producing your stats but I'm actually going to do the opposite. You've probably spent more time collecting that information than Woodgate has preparing for a game all season. Well done 👍🏻

I probably haven't watched as many games as you this season but what I've seen and read I think we've maybe looked a bit vulnerable in those positions when the two young players have had to defend.

That doesnt mean to say they should be dropped from the team though, Coulson reminds me a bit of a young Alexander Arnold in the fact that he's great going forward which obviously leaves him a bit exposed. The obvious thing to do would be to have a holding midfielder in the team who can drop into that position when we are being countered but a good tactician should be able to do a number of things to counteract against that. 

Rather than focus on what the young full backs don't do well I think the manager should focus on what they can do. Both give us energy and an attacking outlet. The easy thing to do in this situation is bring all the older players back, having a confirmation bias about young players not being ready for a relegation fight is something I'd level at the manager more than the fans though. 

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13 minutes ago, Duvel said:

I was going to make fun of you and call you a nerd for producing your stats but I'm actually going to do the opposite. You've probably spent more time collecting that information than Woodgate has preparing for a game all season. Well done 👍🏻

 

You mean that the stuff I posted was correct?  Woo hoo! 🤸‍♂️🤸‍♂️🤸‍♂️

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54 minutes ago, wilsoncgp said:

I don't think walking away from a mess you've helped to create is a decent thing to do, to be honest. I don't personally get that point of view, I know you're not the only one who has said it and I know it was said plenty last season under Pulis too but if he isn't doing his job properly, it's not on him to judge himself so badly to walk away in my opinion. It's on the club to remove him. I think it shows a lack of character to walk away and take yourself away from the responsibility of it.

I have obviously made my position clear regarding JW, however I do agree with your sentiments. If I was in his position I would be fighting tooth and nail to improve results and keep, what to most of us is a once in a lifetime job. It is up to others to be his executioner and in the meantime he does the job to the best of his ability. 

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I consider losing to Leeds at home as bad as losing to the Skunks and the Mackems, and I am not biased I hate all 3 equally. A hammering against Leeds and I really do feel the fans will turn against Woodgate, its who we will have been beaten by rather than where Leeds are in the league, and having to listen to Leeds horrible obnoxious fans singing going down. Gibson will here the Boro fans loud and clear tomorrow night.

                            

 

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3 minutes ago, Rioch's Braves said:

I consider losing to Leeds at home as bad as losing to the Skunks and the Mackems, and I am not biased I hate all 3 equally. A hammering against Leeds and I really do feel the fans will turn against Woodgate, its who we will have been beaten by rather than where Leeds are in the league, and having to listen to Leeds horrible obnoxious fans singing going down. Gibson will here the Boro fans loud and clear tomorrow night.

Couldn't agree more. I think if there is anything like the last 3 games in terms of performance in tomorrow night's game, the Riverside will be baying for blood.

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