Who was the last manager we had that improved our players?

[wilsoncgp 9,276]

If you just count a manager coming in, working with a player and making them entirely more productive... Pulis. Traore was a nobody going nowhere before Pulis came in. He didn't improve anybody else though, off the top of my head. He had good players when he joined, he was allowed to buy good Championship players and when you look at a player like Flint who so drastically went the other way IMO, you could just as easily say he had a much more detrimental effect on players in general. But he did improve Traore's output tenfold.

Karanka improved players too. Ayala is probably the big one, look at the fee we brought him in for, peanuts. At the height of his strengths under Karanka, he was worth much more than that.

[OldManGravz 1,350]

Overwhelmingly Karanka. I think you look at the squad and the majority of those players were arguably playing the best football of their careers under him. Clayton, Ayala, Dimi, Gibson, Bamford, Tomlin, Friend, Nsue and Leadboots were all superb during his time here, and while for some of them it was down to his system, for some he turned them into better than they were. Clayton is better as a defensive midfielder than he ever was before he came here, and if he had to sacrifice his attacking prowess to achieve that then so be it, it's still an improvement. Dimi was a nothing player who came here and became the best in the league - yes he had a solid back line in front of him but he won us points on his own https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.gazettelive.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/how-many-points-dimi-konstantopoulos-10900956.amp. Even goalkeepers behind the stingiest defences in the world would have been proud of his clean sheets record.

 

Yes, Karanka tended to err on the side of caution.

Yes, the team was very well drilled.

No, we weren't ultra-defensive. We played some absolutely beautiful football during his tenure (there you go @Downsouth) and we absolutely battered some teams. Sometimes we had to dig deep, get our hands dirty and grind out wins, but we werent ultra-defensive robots.

[Denzel Zanzibar 6,968]

19 minutes ago, OldManGravz said:

Overwhelmingly Karanka. I think you look at the squad and the majority of those players were arguably playing the best football of their careers under him. Clayton, Ayala, Dimi, Gibson, Bamford, Tomlin, Friend, Nsue and Leadboots were all superb during his time here, and while for some of them it was down to his system, for some he turned them into better than they were. Clayton is better as a defensive midfielder than he ever was before he came here, and if he had to sacrifice his attacking prowess to achieve that then so be it, it's still an improvement. Dimi was a nothing player who came here and became the best in the league - yes he had a solid back line in front of him but he won us points on his own https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.gazettelive.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/how-many-points-dimi-konstantopoulos-10900956.amp. Even goalkeepers behind the stingiest defences in the world would have been proud of his clean sheets record.

 

Yes, Karanka tended to err on the side of caution.

Yes, the team was very well drilled.

No, we weren't ultra-defensive. We played some absolutely beautiful football during his tenure (there you go @Downsouth) and we absolutely battered some teams. Sometimes we had to dig deep, get our hands dirty and grind out wins, but we werent ultra-defensive robots.

Excellent post.

[sackrobson2 371]

9 hours ago, OzzyPorter said:

I'm not rephrasing my question at all. the question that I asked was a really simple one.

"Who was the last manager we had that improved our players?" and i clarified that by saying not just one or two players but 5,6,7 and more.

I dont agree that Karanka did. I think he made us a very strong defensive unit and the defensive players under him thrived in that system but have since been shown to have limitations. That, for me, is not improvement. 

Who did Rioch improve? Seriously? 😁

Yes, who did Rioch improve and in what way? I’m tying to understand why he so obviously did improve players while Karanka so obviously didn’t. 

Edited March 1, 2020 by sackrobson2
Wish to add more

[Redcar Rioja 5,974]

To me football is a team game and Managers are measured by improving the team not individuals. Rioch worked wonders even miracles with his team. As has been said previously Pulis improved Traore but decimated others. The Boro Manager with the best win rate in the history of the Club (and by that I mean who have managed for at least a full season which discounts the short or temporary  tenures) is Karanka at 47%. I found his football tedious to say the least but you can't argue with his win rate. To me win rates are all that matters and by default the Manager must have been doing something right with his players especially when you compare the lavish wealth that say Robbo and McClaren had to spend. Craig Liddle actually has the highest but only over one game at 100% the Harold Shepherdson at 53% over 19 games then AK followed by Monk at 46% during his 26 game residency. 

[Downsouth 6,326]

Is it more of which Managers improved team ethics, performances, making them a team tough to beat and in general a clear improvement of the whole?

Individual players some clearly show improvements by individual Managers, Adama the most recent and clearly seen by all but their previous performances were not that good.

We employ Professional players whom at the time suited us when signed so we all know what their skill levels are and there are not that many who do actually improve in a obvious way.

Will add something more to this I  do think if say the right player who has loads of tricks and clearly skilful and more likely from another country signs, they as individuals can make it so those he is joining can up their own levels and learn from the player himself.

So really a harder question to answer but in living memory Karanka and Rioch but you can not rule out Steve Mac either.

And most recent obviously Tony Pulis ..

[Redcar Rioja 5,974]

If we look at it from the opposite side and which Managers stalled or even killed off players careers then the same list applies with Karanka and Pulis well to the fore. Rioch didn't have the luxury of abandoning, sidelining or ignoring players during his time here but Boro have been a graveyard for a few players over the years especially strikers.

[RiseAgainst 3,792]

That's an interesting expansion on the original point. How many strikers have we signed who've either improved while they were here, or hit career-best form in a Boro shirt? Normally we sign a striker and they quickly turn to turd (Alves, Job, Ricard et al).

[wilsoncgp 9,276]

2 minutes ago, RiseAgainst said:

That's an interesting expansion on the original point. How many strikers have we signed who've either improved while they were here, or hit career-best form in a Boro shirt? Normally we sign a striker and they quickly turn to turd (Alves, Job, Ricard et al).

Bamford comes to mind, he hasn't really reproduced the same kind of form he's shown here (in both spells) anywhere else. His first season in particular but there was a spell where Pulis was forced to play him up front where he was back to his best too.

We haven't destroyed every established striker we've brought in too. Arguably 3 of the best we've brought in never did that. Viduka had some injury problems, Yakubu switched off before going to Everton (and notably in the UEFA Cup final season didn't score beyond February) but generally, really good strikers have still come in and done well. The two I've mentioned there plus Hasselbaink all scored lots of goals for us in the time they were here.

[OldManGravz 1,350]

4 hours ago, RiseAgainst said:

That's an interesting expansion on the original point. How many strikers have we signed who've either improved while they were here, or hit career-best form in a Boro shirt? Normally we sign a striker and they quickly turn to turd (Alves, Job, Ricard et al).

Ravanelli hit 32 in 50 games for us (used Wiki as I wasnt sure of exact numbers) which is easily his best goals per game percentage of his career (again, according to Wiki)

[Changing Times 12,338]

19 minutes ago, OldManGravz said:

Ravanelli hit 32 in 50 games for us (used Wiki as I wasnt sure of exact numbers) which is easily his best goals per game percentage of his career (again, according to Wiki)

That, in at least part, would have been down to previously playing in a league where teams could defend.

[Essuuaitch 330]

strangely enough the first 3 that came to my mind that improved or hit thier best form here Hendrie, Wilkinson, Slaven were around during our last dice with the third tier. id add Burns to those 3 also. , and a decade before that i give you Fatty Foggon. 

[Redcar Rioja 5,974]

On 3/1/2020 at 7:18 PM, wilsoncgp said:

Bamford comes to mind, he hasn't really reproduced the same kind of form he's shown here (in both spells) anywhere else. His first season in particular but there was a spell where Pulis was forced to play him up front where he was back to his best too.

We haven't destroyed every established striker we've brought in too. Arguably 3 of the best we've brought in never did that. Viduka had some injury problems, Yakubu switched off before going to Everton (and notably in the UEFA Cup final season didn't score beyond February) but generally, really good strikers have still come in and done well. The two I've mentioned there plus Hasselbaink all scored lots of goals for us in the time they were here.

My memory might be hazy but Viduka was seemingly injury prone when it suited him and when his contract was expiring he suddenly found some form in the last few months to secure his next big pay day. Same went for Boksic, on his day brilliant but had the motivation of a Sloth. As for Yakubu, I hoped you washed your mouth out after uttering his name, his lasting memory for me was nothing short of disgraceful. JFH put a shift in but was past his prime in fairness but I do remember his time here fondly. Ravanelli was fantastic on the pitch but toxic off it and that Cup Final was a disgrace. Bitter, me? Too flipping true I am.

[wilsoncgp 9,276]

Viduka was out a lot with injury in his first season, I seem to recall he got injured really early on and was out for a long time. I don't think that was to his advantage at all. I sense the bitterness I also felt when he left for Newcastle though haha. It was utterly mad that Yakubu got onto the pitch at Wigan in that awful last game of his.

[chickenlunch 315]

Tony Pulis