DanFromDownSouth 1,706 Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 2 minutes ago, OzzyPorter said: He improved their ability to perform the role he asked of them. There is a difference. Surely by implementing a tactic that suits the players at his disposal, will of course improve players. Through coaching these players became better at the role asked of them to play. Link to post Share on other sites
Duvel 2,446 Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 4 minutes ago, DanFromDownSouth said: Can I also say, during the Play-off season and promotion season we played some really good, ball on the deck, football. We controlled games and once we went a goal up, we were lethal on the counter. Certainly weren't ultra defensive as some claim. He did but some fans only started watching us under Karanka when we got promoted so they won't have seen that. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
OzzyPorter 44 Posted February 29, 2020 Author Share Posted February 29, 2020 Just now, DanFromDownSouth said: Surely by implementing a tactic that suits the players at his disposal, will of course improve players. Through coaching these players became better at the role asked of them to play. But did that improve the player or were those changes actually detrimental to the overall ability of that player? An example being Adam Clayton to name but one. Link to post Share on other sites
Will 2,958 Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 6 minutes ago, OzzyPorter said: He improved their ability to perform the role he asked of them. There is a difference. In which case your example of Chris wilder is just as wrong. Given that nobody has left his Sheffield United team and gone onto better things and he is still their manager (so we can’t see if they regress after he leaves), we can’t know if it’s just the system or him actually improving them. Link to post Share on other sites
Uwe 3,543 Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 Just now, OzzyPorter said: But did that improve the player or were those changes actually detrimental to the overall ability of that player? An example being Adam Clayton to name but one. I understand what you’re saying. But he definitely made Adam Clayton a better player. The issue was what he made him was a lot less glamorous. At Huddersfield he was allowed to press forward and shoot on sight. With Karanka his single job was to stop the opposition doing theirs and for a couple of seasons he was the best in the league at it. So I’d say that’s an improvement (although a boring one! 2 Link to post Share on other sites
DanFromDownSouth 1,706 Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 1 minute ago, OzzyPorter said: But did that improve the player or were those changes actually detrimental to the overall ability of that player? An example being Adam Clayton to name but one. In Clayton's case of course the change of role improved him (for our system). His attacking output obviously dropped, but that isn't a reflection of his ability dropping, merely a case of in the role he is no longer needing to do certain things. Link to post Share on other sites
Will 2,958 Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 3 minutes ago, OzzyPorter said: But did that improve the player or were those changes actually detrimental to the overall ability of that player? An example being Adam Clayton to name but one. Converting Clayton to a CDM and coaching him to play that position took him from a half decent midfielder in this league to one of the best in the league. Karanka maximised his potential by changing what he did. Link to post Share on other sites
OzzyPorter 44 Posted February 29, 2020 Author Share Posted February 29, 2020 1 minute ago, Will said: In which case your example of Chris wilder is just as wrong. Given that nobody has left his Sheffield United team and gone onto better things and he is still their manager (so we can’t see if they regress after he leaves), we can’t know if it’s just the system or him actually improving them. Except that wilder has improved players thoughout his team and not only their defensive attributes bit I sort of see your point. Link to post Share on other sites
OzzyPorter 44 Posted February 29, 2020 Author Share Posted February 29, 2020 1 minute ago, Uwe said: I understand what you’re saying. But he definitely made Adam Clayton a better player. The issue was what he made him was a lot less glamorous. At Huddersfield he was allowed to press forward and shoot on sight. With Karanka his single job was to stop the opposition doing theirs and for a couple of seasons he was the best in the league at it. So I’d say that’s an improvement (although a boring one! Hmm I'm not so sure. Clayton was a very good all round midfielder who could defend and get forward and score goals when he was at Huddersfield. I just can't agree that he is a better all round player now and that's down to Karanka. Link to post Share on other sites
Will 2,958 Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 1 minute ago, OzzyPorter said: Hmm I'm not so sure. Clayton was a very good all round midfielder who could defend and get forward and score goals when he was at Huddersfield. I just can't agree that he is a better all round player now and that's down to Karanka. Sorry but if you can’t see that 14-17 Adam Clayton was significantly better than the one who had spent his career in mid table mediocrity then there’s really no point discussing it further. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
Uwe 3,543 Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 1 minute ago, OzzyPorter said: Hmm I'm not so sure. Clayton was a very good all round midfielder who could defend and get forward and score goals when he was at Huddersfield. I just can't agree that he is a better all round player now and that's down to Karanka. I never said he’s a better all rounder. But he is (or was) a much better specialist under Karanka which is the question you first asked Link to post Share on other sites
OzzyPorter 44 Posted February 29, 2020 Author Share Posted February 29, 2020 2 minutes ago, Will said: Sorry but if you can’t see that 14-17 Adam Clayton was significantly better than the one who had spent his career in mid table mediocrity then there’s really no point discussing it further. You're not understanding the detail of the argument 😂 OK let's agree to disagree. Link to post Share on other sites
OzzyPorter 44 Posted February 29, 2020 Author Share Posted February 29, 2020 3 minutes ago, Uwe said: I never said he’s a better all rounder. But he is (or was) a much better specialist under Karanka which is the question you first asked No i didn't. I asked who last improved our players. That isn't solely based on their defensive attributes. You must consider their all round ability. Link to post Share on other sites
BillyWoofs_shinpad 1,884 Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 1 minute ago, OzzyPorter said: You're not understanding the detail of the argument 😂 OK let's agree to disagree. Where do you stand on Malcolm Allison though? He really got the best out of his players. Link to post Share on other sites
Will 2,958 Posted February 29, 2020 Share Posted February 29, 2020 1 minute ago, OzzyPorter said: You're not understanding the detail of the argument 😂 OK let's agree to disagree. I’m understanding it completely. By any measure he was a better player in those years, as a result of his manager identifying that he had a skill set that suited a different role to the one he currently had. Let’s not forget that Clayton was handpicked by Karanka, he was the player he wanted as part of his double pivot in midfield despite him never playing a similar system in his career. Link to post Share on other sites
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