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COVID-19 And it’s effect on everyone and everything

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People do have to look at their own actions and be judged on that. However, that can't be the place of government to criticise its own people, when their attempt at creating a more nuanced approach has been pretty catastrophic. 

The Cummings situation was dumb and actually there are similarities in how the government should have handled him and how Starmer has responded to Corbyn's comments after the anti-Semitism report. At a time when the only meaningful thing is action, it must be taken and an example must be set. At a time when communities are hurting and are confused and worried, there's no room for allowing the kind of nuance Cummings came out with. His excuses opened it up and allowed others to make their own excuses during a time when most people were handling it fine.

We also have to hold government accountable for schemes they have introduced that have created more problems than they have solved. Businesses cannot survive with no customers but it has been more important getting people back into restaurants, cinemas, etc. than ensuring these environments are actually safe. Masks have only in the last month or so been made pretty much mandatory for 95% of people and goodness me, the amount of people who do wear them who don't wear them properly, this information has clearly not been delivered very well.

So now we're heading back into national lockdown and yes, people do have to take responsibility for themselves. That problem is only made worse by a government that is struggling to reinforce and make clear necessary procedures for the public to follow and that's on them, not the people.

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I agree about the Cummings debacle. He should’ve been sacked on the spot. But the instructions are pretty clear if you apply common sense to them. However because there is an amount of interpretation people will abuse ‘loopholes’ to suit  themselves and this falls squarely on the shoulders of the selfish 

 

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But that's the thing, why should Cummings be allowed to come up with his own reasons and others not? I imagine that's a thought process that has hit a lot of people. Government don't actually care about individual circumstances if they allow Cummings to make up his own so why should others follow rules blindly? 

As for clear rules, I don't even know what the rules are for everything and we've been pretty sensible. We're lucky though, we don't have children, we have jobs that can be done from home, even when things opened up again we haven't gone out to any restaurants as we were encouraged to do by government schemes, we used the opportunity we had to see each of our families two or three times and that's it. We have followed rules undoubtedly but we have also disobeyed government advice to Eat Out to Help Out and all that crap.

We're all making up our own rules at this point because the direct message from government is lost until now when we hit another national lockdown. You can say it's common sense but 7-8 months ago our lives were very different and quite a lot of people are aching to get back to that way of living and we can't blame them for that. 

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Echo @wilsoncgp's comments. 

Think the Government got a lot wrong in the original lockdown, which has now caused us to be in the situation we are in now. 

We should have been really aggressive with track and trace during the original lockdown, to actually get an understanding of who actually has it and who has come into contact with them. But we seemingly did away with actually tracking people down and isolating the outbreaks.

People will argue that a population of our size and density it's hard to do such a thing, but you only have to look at South Korea (Lower population, but much higher density overall) as an example of how effective an aggressive track and trace system can be.

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Numbers started spiralling in Ireland a few weeks back, hitting peaks of 1000+ cases a day after being below 100 for a good while. We entered lockdown 2 weeks ago and its had the effect already of reducing numbers dramatically. 

I dont think people are as upset this time as last time (in march/april) because they are more used to what is expected I guess. The problem is with the morons that still insist in going to parties and all that. And also this:

image.png.697e367e4e4d254cf59261801d1f56cc.png

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On 11/1/2020 at 12:00 PM, wilsoncgp said:

People do have to look at their own actions and be judged on that. However, that can't be the place of government to criticise its own people, when their attempt at creating a more nuanced approach has been pretty catastrophic. 

The Cummings situation was dumb and actually there are similarities in how the government should have handled him and how Starmer has responded to Corbyn's comments after the anti-Semitism report. At a time when the only meaningful thing is action, it must be taken and an example must be set. At a time when communities are hurting and are confused and worried, there's no room for allowing the kind of nuance Cummings came out with. His excuses opened it up and allowed others to make their own excuses during a time when most people were handling it fine.

We also have to hold government accountable for schemes they have introduced that have created more problems than they have solved. Businesses cannot survive with no customers but it has been more important getting people back into restaurants, cinemas, etc. than ensuring these environments are actually safe. Masks have only in the last month or so been made pretty much mandatory for 95% of people and goodness me, the amount of people who do wear them who don't wear them properly, this information has clearly not been delivered very well.

So now we're heading back into national lockdown and yes, people do have to take responsibility for themselves. That problem is only made worse by a government that is struggling to reinforce and make clear necessary procedures for the public to follow and that's on them, not the people.

I'll just leave this here...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-54769055

 

There have been incidents like this all over the country...mainly in the Midlands and the North. When you've got these numbers of stupid, selfish idiots blatantly ignoring social distancing protocols (even small kids can understand HANDS, FACE, SPACE), there isn't much any government can do, short of putting the army on the streets with checkpoints everywhere and people needing passes to show they are outside for a legitimate reason.

Which, by the way, is what they did in France during the first lockdown and I think they're now doing again.

The people have largely brought this on themselves due to their sheer refusal to follow government guidance. Or more accurately, the majority are now suffering due to the actions of a significant idiot minority.

 

Sure you can blame the government for not ramping up test facilities quickly enough and not getting a functional track & trace system running. You can also question the effectiveness of "firebreak lockdowns" and the tier system, but the fact remains, if people had been taking the proper precautions, the virus wouldn't have spread like it has.

Seriously, if you need to be told how to wear a mask, then you should probably also be in a care home.

As to the changing government advice (which many seem to be blaming for their "confusion"), would you rather they issued a set of rules and then resolutely stuck with them, even when the situation clearly called for different measures?

For the record, I don't think this latest lockdown is going to achieve much beyond temporarily putting the brakes on. In fact, I don't think the situation is going to genuinely improve until people start getting vaccinated...

...then we'll have the idiot anti-vaccers to contend with.

We probably also shouldn't under-estimate the effect of social media, misinformation spreaders and those dumb enough to believe it.

Edited by AnglianRed
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56 minutes ago, AnglianRed said:

Seriously, if you need to be told how to wear a mask, then you should probably also be in a care home.

As to the changing government advice (which many seem to be blaming for their "confusion"), would you rather they issued a set of rules and then resolutely stuck with them, even when the situation clearly called for different measures?

It's that attitude that keeps the government happy with the way they deliver information; expecting the public to understand everything that's asked of them. Expecting them to understand information that's delivered simply because it is delivered. I notice nobody was saying "Who doesn't know how to wash their own hands?" when the government kept reiterating how to do that, there's a reason they do it and it's to make sure people actually get the message. Yet nobody has ever continuously stressed the importance of how to wear a mask, it's been a side issue that the government couldn't even come to a consensus on for months and even when they did, they couldn't decide whether to punish people for not following the rules or not. It was a calamity and anyone who has been out shopping during the summer knows it because they've seen the half-arsed mask-wearing, people not covering their nose, people hanging it off one ear or under their chin, they've seen people taking their masks off and holding them by the part collecting the infectious droplets!

Sticking with government messaging, Hands, Face, Space, what the *** is that? It's a crap slogan that says absolutely nothing. When you compare it to the early slogan of 'Stay Home, Protect the NHS, Save Lives', how can you say it's good enough? One is informative and precise, the other is 3 words that buttoned together serve to give the public very little information at all and actually just go to prove that whoever is coming up with these slogans has probably gotten just as sick of this pandemic as everybody else, it gives off the same vibes as those people attending secret raves and whilst the government is so lackadaisical in their messaging, why should anybody else feel any differently. That's their sodding job, mate, to provide as much information as possible in as small a chunk as possible and since they started opening things back up again, they've got that part wrong, it's just not been that significant on their agenda.

Nobody is saying they should not change their approach with new information although that would be an improvement, frankly this government has a few times since the very start wasted time in making decisions, by which time the rules they come to implement have come too late for some, the information they then base their decisions on can not be described as new for much longer, especially given the pace at which this pandemic hit us.

The government are the people that are meant to support us and help us make the difficult decisions. At times during this pandemic, we have made the right decisions regardless of whether they came too late or not. But far too often since the summer, communication has been rubbish, not just to people but local authorities who have then been tasked with delivering information with no cohesive strategy. It is by far the most important issue that needs tackling when you're asking an entire country of people to change their ways to save people and it's their job to get it right. It doesn't matter who is in charge, what party, left, right or centre, the government needs holding to account when it gets things wrong and it has.

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@wilsoncgp I do understand where you are coming from but one of the biggest issues the public have is being dictated too. So the government tries to treat them like adults. Unfortunately it’s painfully obvious they’re too many *** idiots that spoil it for the majority. 
You explained how you and your partner adjusted to the pandemic and it’s how the government would want everyone too but that’s just not the case and I don’t see how we can blame the government for that

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Yeah but we didn't do it on the back of government advice, certainly not since quite early on, the amount of times me and the missus have asked each other what the current rules are since the initial national lockdown was imposed is a bit daft, neither of us have a clue. Early on, I thought it was all pretty clear and the evidence seemed to be that was generally the case in how it was getting across to people, there was fear, panic, feelings that respected the virus for all the daft responses we had (loo roll going out of stock everywhere and all that), people were still generally staying at home and following those rules. As things opened back up again, the messaging has been lost as the balance between battling economic decline and keeping people safe started to grey. I certainly don't think we can just hold 700 people at a rave and the like responsible for that, I think some events like that rave will happen because of this crap communication.

Put it this way, if a business started to lose its ability to communicate effectively to its customers and people stopped paying attention to their products, they'd lose their customers and in this era where communication is so open, they'd be holding themselves accountable for not getting their message across and starting to make changes in order to better reach people. Unless they were crackers and thought "It's the customers who are wrong for not listening", that's the kind of rubbish you'd see on the Apprentice. 😄

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Total lockdown (including schools) is the best way to go. Once again it’s come too late and many people have been unnecessarily infected due to the backbenchers influence on the Tory leadership. The right wingers are slowing down the process, by pressurising  Johnson to put business before health.

Why, even the Brexit party have decided to become the anti-lockdown party it’s nuts!

Starmer got it right when he sanctioned a national lockdown 3 weeks ago, but the bone headed Tories wouldn’t have any of it. If ever there was a time for a government of unity, now is the time. 
 

At least Johnson has seen sense and scrapped the ridiculous tier system, the rule of 6 and the 10pm pub closing time, those measures did absolutely nothing to help contain the virus and gave people mixed messages. 
 

I can’t see this new lockdown ending in December, that’s just not long enough to see any meaningful change in infection rates. The NHS once again needs to be protected and the curve will have to be flattened to give it a fighting chance over the winter. 
 

I think until a vaccine is developed, we’ll have to get used to locked down Winters and more relaxed Summers. 

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How locked down do you go and for how long? However much you want to seemingly pretend otherwise, the economy won't survive being totally shut down for months; we're already struggling with what we've endured so far. 

I have a very different view seemingly to most on here, I'm totally against another long term lock down. Not only can the economy not take it, human beings can't take it. The last lockdown saw an increase in suicidal thoughts - a problem that plagues young people at the best of times. This will only get worse over the winter months; months notorious for bringing people down and making people feel lonely anyway.

As someone with pretty severe depression and anxiety, in regular contact with my dr, I'm absolutely terrified about what a lockdown winter might do to myself and others like me.

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19 hours ago, wilsoncgp said:

Put it this way, if a business started to lose its ability to communicate effectively to its customers and people stopped paying attention to their products, they'd lose their customers and in this era where communication is so open, they'd be holding themselves accountable for not getting their message across and starting to make changes in order to better reach people. Unless they were crackers and thought "It's the customers who are wrong for not listening", that's the kind of rubbish you'd see on the Apprentice. 😄

My point was that if people had done the basics...the things that WERE crystal clear (to everyone but the idiots), then the virus wouldn't have spread nearly as rapidly as it has.

Maybe government advice HAS changed a lot over the months, but the core principles have remained the same throughout, regarding distancing, personal and general hygiene and reducing transmission (i.e. wearing a mask).

Even meeting other people has remained largely the same - Rule of Six for social gatherings or "bubbles" and a maximum of 30 for functions like funerals or weddings (again with appropriate distancing).

I really don't see whats so confusing about that.

Intstead we've seen large numbers of private "house" parties with 30-40 people, students doing usual student-y stuff in their halls of residence, illegal raves in warehouses and festivals in woods.

And thats before we get to the idiots gathering in the streets after pubs closed early.

I refuse to believe anyone was "confused" in those cases. They're just doing it because they're selfish arseholes who don't give a crap about anyone else.

And thats before we even discuss the idiots who think having to wear a mask infringes their civil liberties. 🙄🤦‍♂️ Trump would be proud of those folks!

 

Call me mad, but in this case I think the customers ARE wrong.

Just because a few MPs break the rules, it shouldn't give licence for the public to follow suit. Is it stupid, reckless and bad leadership? Definitely. But did those breaches of protocol endanger hundreds or even thousands of others? No.

Well...except for that SNP woman who decided to travel from London to Glasgow by train AFTER having a positive Covid test. Holy god did I want to give her a good slapping (with a fake hand on the end of a 2m pole, of course).

While I agree the government's handling has been far from perfect, I don't believe they have done anything with the deliberate intent to kill or impoverish people. They've had a pretty thankless job, trying to tread a fine line between public health and the economy and they were always going to cop flak from some quarters, no matter what they did.

Yes the government's job is to manage this crisis the best way they can, but they can only do it with compliance from the public...and that compliance has been severely lacking in some areas.

 

Edited by AnglianRed

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38 minutes ago, Brunners said:

How locked down do you go and for how long? However much you want to seemingly pretend otherwise, the economy won't survive being totally shut down for months; we're already struggling with what we've endured so far. 

I have a very different view seemingly to most on here, I'm totally against another long term lock down. Not only can the economy not take it, human beings can't take it. The last lockdown saw an increase in suicidal thoughts - a problem that plagues young people at the best of times. This will only get worse over the winter months; months notorious for bringing people down and making people feel lonely anyway.

As someone with pretty severe depression and anxiety, in regular contact with my dr, I'm absolutely terrified about what a lockdown winter might do to myself and others like me.

Stay in regular contact with us as well...your oneBoro family! Also try and call your folks and friends regularly. You might be by yourself, but you're not alone.

Sorry - that sounded less cheesy in my head.

My biggest issue with a 2nd lockdown is that we already went through a 4-month one, which only suppressed the virus. As soon as people started moving around again, it began to spread even more quickly.

With the first lockdown, it took 4 months for infections, hospitalisations and deaths to almost disappear completely. This time around we'll be lucky to even halve them...starting from a far worse position and with only a quarter of the time...also assuming people adhere to the lockdown rules as well as they did the first time.

I can only assume the government are trying to make sure hospitals don't get overwhelmed, but I don't see how a 1-month lockdown will prevent that.

 

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The government should have acted sooner, as had been the case all the way through this Pandemic.  They were caught on the back foot at the start and then squandered the opportunity in the summer to better prepare for what the experts told them to expect.  It didn't help that they also saw it as an opportunity to give favours (at our expense) to their mates and party donors, who weren't up to the job either.

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You can blame the idiots who congregate in streets when the pubs close at 10pm or you can blame the idiots who opened them and then decided a 10pm curfew would help the situation. It was a stupid idea that has made the situation worse. Ah yes, not in the pub any more, they're just all on the bus/train/tube home together, everyone in all the different bars come out at once and can't avoid intermingling. If you're gonna blame the people for that then God help you...

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